ZTL - Italy's Dangerous Tourist Tax.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Renato1

Established Member
Joined
May 1, 2015
Posts
1,730
After my brother got three 120 Euro fines last year in a couple of minutes trying to find a car park in the local small city, first thing I did this year was ask my cousin what signs I have to look out for.

She said "ZTL" meaning Zona Traffico Limitato. It took me several weeks, but I finally spotted one - a pale yellow circle with the ZTL in it, stuck on the side of a building inside the road one is entering. Later I found that there are also electronic signs on carts placed on the road one is entering, with either green "Non Attivo" (I can use the road) or red "Attivo" with times in little writing (drive through and get a fine).

The two big problems are,
A. Car navigators don't know about ZTL, and
B. There are no warning signs saying you are coming to these no-drive zones, you only find out about them as you attempt to turn into them.

Two days ago in Ravenna, my car navigator took me into a big roundabout, with a park in the middle. I went over 10 meters down the one-way exit my navigator said to go, when I came to the red ZTL sign on a cart. So I pulled to the side of the narrow road, made room for cars to pass me, and proceeded with the hair raising task of reversing back against on-coming traffic and back into the round about. Then I took off and tried the next exit, where there was yet another such sign - so I swerved out of that lane, cutting across on-coming traffic heading toward the stop sign on the other side of the road. Very warily, I approached the next exit - which also had another ZTL sign. The only way out of that roundabout turned out to be the way I had come in.

I later asked an Italian friend about ZTL, and he said he had gotten 50 Euro fine in Turin last year, where he too had had the difficult choice to make - go forward and get a fine, or stop and probably have a pile up on top of him because of the heavy traffic.

Plainly, ZTL isn't an issue for locals who can adjust for the signs. But the lack of easily visible warning signs indicating that one is approaching a ZTL sign, or that streets one is approaching have ZTL signs in them, makes it a great revenue booster from out-of-towners and tourists.

It certainly takes some of the pleasure out of driving around Italy. Not everywhere, though. In Rimini I asked the hotel desk attendant about ZTLs in Rimini before going there. She said yes, that there were ZTLs in Rimini, but that I need not worry, as I'd have a tough time making my way to them.

Anyhow, now I will wait and see if any fines turn up when I get back home.
Cheers,
Renato
 
ZTL’s are difficult, but very necessary. Italy was being ruined by too many cars.

At times it has resembled an entire country looking for a parking spot.

Anything to reduce the dominance of private motor cars in town centres is welcome.

At the same time, the quality of public transport offerings has improved in recent years, particularly the trains.
 
So in other words, drive like a local. :)
I guess that's one way of looking at it, though I really don't like doing it.

Which reminds me of the other really weird thing I'm pretty much forced to do over here, or risk accidents among fellow road users.

They are doing a major upgrade to a superstrada here, so for about 15 or so kilometers, the speed limit is 30kph. Except that everyone does 90kph or more on it. So I find it quite weird to be driving at 70 or 80kph - still slowing down traffic - but acting somewhat responsibly.

And then I think "But I'm still driving at two and a half times the speed limit".
Cheers,
Renato
 
I'm just back from 30 days driving in Italy and we were aware of ZTL dangers and the fines. In most cases, we went to a paid carpeggio and then walked up to the towns so there was no danger of being in a ZTL area.

I also cancelled the credit card I used to hire the car the day after we dropped off the card so we don't get any surprise debits on the card in coming months. :)
 
I can second Renato's frustrations. I had researched ZTL's for each of the major locations we were visiting for a trip last year, downloading maps from a website. I had briefed the three backseat drivers (had to take the two sisters-in-law) with printouts of what the signs look like, but that was a complete waste of time. Walking around Milan on our first day, before we collected the car, I showed them an actual sign and they still couldn't recognise them a day later.

By the time you see the signs, it's too late, you often can't go anywhere except past the ZTL boundary. If you are driving a little European buzzbox, you might be able to take your life in your hands and pull up to the side of the road/reverse/drive across the footpath but I had to hire a LR Discovery as I couldn't get an answer out of the in-laws about the amount of luggage they were bringing.

Downloading/printing the ZTL maps and reviewing before the day's adventures did help. I was able to avoid most of them. My basic strategy was to park a little further out of town and walk the extra couple of hundred metres. Also helped with the waistline after all the good food!

I did get caught in Bassano del Grappa, but was lucky. Took a wrong turn while looking for a park and ended up going down a narrow one way street with no ability to turn left or right and ended up hitting a ZTL. Had no choice but keep going forward. Luckily it seems that this particular ZTL is in force only on the weekends according to research at the hotel that night to get a damage estimate. It's been nearly 12 months and there have been no dreaded letters in the post, so I think I've managed to dodge it.

According to locals I spoke to, the ZTL's are policed ruthlessly. Speed cameras on the other hand seem to be less of an issue. Speed cameras are often broken or not even in the boxes I was told and locals treat them as a bit of raffle or occasional travel cost when they do get fined.

One thing to be aware of is that if you do cop a fine, (ZTL or otherwaise) the rental car company will also hit you with a charge.

My tips? Download local ZTL maps before you go. Park a little further out, you'll find something interesting on the walk in anyway. Don't just follow cars into ZTL zones, as locals/taxis have ZTL passes. If your hotel is in a ZTL zone, they can sometimes register you car registration number, but you need to do this before entering the ZTL. If you do get caught in a ZTL area, just go with it and cop the fine, It's going to be less hassle than having an accident. Rely on backseat drivers at your own peril. (Indicative backseat driver conversation: Had just been turned away from car rental agency after waiting 45 minutes for them to come back from lunch as location was full - car before us was allowed in, we weren't - so we were sent to another location. Me: 'What's the street we have to go to, so I can program the GPS?' BSD:'Via'. Me: 'Via what?'. BSD: 'Via street'. Me: 'But what Street?'. BSD: 'Via Street, do you want me to spell it for you?' Me: 'AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!')
 
Google gave me this useful page

And this one with Maps
Thanks. But the very obvious red sign listed in the first article isn't typical of the yellow ones I've had a hard time spotting.

Also, the maps given are only for four major cities. The ZTLs are being put into tiny towns like Asolo too.
Regards,
Renato

Might be waiting for a while as some fines only arrive up to a year after they were recorded.
Yes, that happened to me from Pisa years ago.
Regards,
Renato

ZTL’s are difficult, but very necessary. Italy was being ruined by too many cars.

At times it has resembled an entire country looking for a parking spot.

Anything to reduce the dominance of private motor cars in town centres is welcome.

At the same time, the quality of public transport offerings has improved in recent years, particularly the trains.
Nothing wrong with reducing car traffic in cities.

Something extremely wrong with setting up a system where no warnings are given of what is up ahead. For example there are plenty of signs warning that traffic lights and roundabouts and bends are ahead. Even warnings to slow down because of bends in the road and of possible dear running across the roads.

But, very inconsistently, not much by way of warnings about ZTLs ahead.
Regards,
Renato

I'm just back from 30 days driving in Italy and we were aware of ZTL dangers and the fines. In most cases, we went to a paid carpeggio and then walked up to the towns so there was no danger of being in a ZTL area.

I also cancelled the credit card I used to hire the car the day after we dropped off the card so we don't get any surprise debits on the card in coming months. :)
When I had the horror roundabout incident, I had programmed the navigator to take me to the carpark near St Vitale church in Ravenna. That didn't work so well for me.
Cheers,
Renato

I can second Renato's frustrations. I had researched ZTL's for each of the major locations we were visiting for a trip last year, downloading maps from a website. I had briefed the three backseat drivers (had to take the two sisters-in-law) with printouts of what the signs look like, but that was a complete waste of time. Walking around Milan on our first day, before we collected the car, I showed them an actual sign and they still couldn't recognise them a day later.

By the time you see the signs, it's too late, you often can't go anywhere except past the ZTL boundary. If you are driving a little European buzzbox, you might be able to take your life in your hands and pull up to the side of the road/reverse/drive across the footpath but I had to hire a LR Discovery as I couldn't get an answer out of the in-laws about the amount of luggage they were bringing.

Downloading/printing the ZTL maps and reviewing before the day's adventures did help. I was able to avoid most of them. My basic strategy was to park a little further out of town and walk the extra couple of hundred metres. Also helped with the waistline after all the good food!

I did get caught in Bassano del Grappa, but was lucky. Took a wrong turn while looking for a park and ended up going down a narrow one way street with no ability to turn left or right and ended up hitting a ZTL. Had no choice but keep going forward. Luckily it seems that this particular ZTL is in force only on the weekends according to research at the hotel that night to get a damage estimate. It's been nearly 12 months and there have been no dreaded letters in the post, so I think I've managed to dodge it.

According to locals I spoke to, the ZTL's are policed ruthlessly. Speed cameras on the other hand seem to be less of an issue. Speed cameras are often broken or not even in the boxes I was told and locals treat them as a bit of raffle or occasional travel cost when they do get fined.

One thing to be aware of is that if you do cop a fine, (ZTL or otherwaise) the rental car company will also hit you with a charge.

My tips? Download local ZTL maps before you go. Park a little further out, you'll find something interesting on the walk in anyway. Don't just follow cars into ZTL zones, as locals/taxis have ZTL passes. If your hotel is in a ZTL zone, they can sometimes register you car registration number, but you need to do this before entering the ZTL. If you do get caught in a ZTL area, just go with it and cop the fine, It's going to be less hassle than having an accident. Rely on backseat drivers at your own peril. (Indicative backseat driver conversation: Had just been turned away from car rental agency after waiting 45 minutes for them to come back from lunch as location was full - car before us was allowed in, we weren't - so we were sent to another location. Me: 'What's the street we have to go to, so I can program the GPS?' BSD:'Via'. Me: 'Via what?'. BSD: 'Via street'. Me: 'But what Street?'. BSD: 'Via Street, do you want me to spell it for you?' Me: 'AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!')
You were very, very lucky. Bassano del Grappa was where my brother got the three tickets.

I just can't get over the danger they pose to drivers - both to outsiders and locals - when lack of advisory signs suddenly puts a driver in an impossible position of having to decide in a slit second between a big fine or a possible big dangerous accident.

Speed cameras in Italy are controlled by different Police forces, depending on the type of road. And by law their function is to prevent speeding, by giving fair warning of cameras in the area - not to act as revenue raisers. So, my friend tells me, when local Police got enthusiastic and started hiding the cameras in bushes and booking everyone - the Carabinnieri denounced them to the Magistrate for breaking the law.

At least around the Veneto area, in general, drivers don't speed anything like they used to do when I first started coming here 14 years ago. Fines are pretty steep.
Regards,
Renato
 
Reading up on this, it would seem you can use GPS systems that will let you know about them these days. A popular GPS app is Waze. I use it in Australia. In Italy you can set it to warn you when approaching a ZTL zone, as follows: How to avoid ZTL in Italy- there is a mobile app for that! - Magnets On The Fridge

Also, from their official blog: Driving Smarter and Greener with Waze for ZTL & Crit’Air

I did try the Waze app for this purpose. In car GPS for navigation and Waze on mobile phone for warnings. I didn't find it to be particularly reliable or complete, warned of some but not others. My understanding is that it relies on user reports for locations (just my understanding, may not be true). YMMV, but I'd be interested in what other people have found for future trips. Our car travel segments were across the north of the country from Milan across to Venice, about 12 days in total.
 
I'm just back from 30 days driving in Italy and we were aware of ZTL dangers and the fines. In most cases, we went to a paid carpeggio and then walked up to the towns so there was no danger of being in a ZTL area.

I also cancelled the credit card I used to hire the car the day after we dropped off the card so we don't get any surprise debits on the card in coming months. :)
I had a similar experience except I asked the credit card company to change my CC number. They did.
 
The Frequent Flyer Concierge team takes the hard work out of finding reward seat availability. Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, they'll help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

I went through a ZTL once, got a "fine" from Avis a month or so later but the actual fine never came.
 
Reading up on this, it would seem you can use GPS systems that will let you know about them these days. A popular GPS app is Waze. I use it in Australia. In Italy you can set it to warn you when approaching a ZTL zone, as follows: How to avoid ZTL in Italy- there is a mobile app for that! - Magnets On The Fridge

Also, from their official blog: Driving Smarter and Greener with Waze for ZTL & Crit’Air
Thanks for that, but I haven't been able to find the ZTL warning app on Play store.

I did download the Waze navigation app which apparently includes ZTL information when calculating routes, as it asks one to input ZTL permits for one's city. Though when I looked at the map of the city I'm near, it didn't highlight the ZTL roads I know exist.

Still, it may prove very useful in practice, thanks.
Regards,
Renato
 
Ravenna is probably the city I know best in Italy, visiting at least once a year on business and couple of times with my wife for tourism. I'm very fond of it but usually try to avoid driving. I also have techs working in Italy a lot and all have got some obscure fine at some point. Often months after the fact, as noted above. Part of life there.

If we've booked their car through our business travel agent, I get them to fight it - sometimes successfully.

I usually drive to Ravenna from Venice or get train from Bologna.

Our techs do that run and also have to drive from Naples to job sites in the Basilicata mountain valleys - took them a while to get used the Napoli section!

Even on public transport I've been caught out - especially by the Trenitalia "ticket validation" which works differently depending on whether you buy from the ticket window or from a machine. So you might never know that you need to validate your ticket if you've always bought from machine (or window, I can't remember which one automatically validates it and like most Italian bureaucracy, the answer is not intuitive).

And then in many stations, the validation machine is obscurely-placed. The first time this happened to me, I was whacked with a €40 on-the-spot fine and all the Italian passengers in the carriage were shouting at the inspector in defence of me. "Can't you see he is a foreign businessman who made an innocent mistake? At least he bought a ticket!" etc. Then they pointed out the validation machines at station platforms along the way but even they couldn't spot them at times. At least Bologna station has them at the bottom of the platform steps now.

Anyway, you might enjoy this short cartoon about Italian traffic and how doing the "right" thing can be counter-productive from the excellent Bruno Bozzetto:


Also from Bruno, his classic cartoon about life in general in Italy vs Northern Europe:

 
I guess that's one way of looking at it, though I really don't like doing it.

Which reminds me of the other really weird thing I'm pretty much forced to do over here, or risk accidents among fellow road users.

They are doing a major upgrade to a superstrada here, so for about 15 or so kilometers, the speed limit is 30kph. Except that everyone does 90kph or more on it. So I find it quite weird to be driving at 70 or 80kph - still slowing down traffic - but acting somewhat responsibly.

And then I think "But I'm still driving at two and a half times the speed limit".
Cheers,
Renato
Hi Renato where are you living in Italy. We have hired a camper 7 times and are going again in 21. We always park up at Area sosta campers sites. Have never been booked(Yet) and the best way to drive is exactly like the Locals. I know When in Roma.
 
Badly placed validation machines at train stations seems to be a feature of many Euro railway systems.

As with these ZTL signs, almost seems designed to raise revenue from non-locals
 
I got a LTZ fine from Sardinia, Italy, arrived in mail a full year later, have yet to pay it, not sure I will.

We never saw the signs over there, knew nothing about them.

Was a rental car & they never had any correspondence with us, fine came directly to us. Has incorrect names on fine & neighbour dropped it to us as slightly incorrect address.
 
Ravenna is probably the city I know best in Italy, visiting at least once a year on business and couple of times with my wife for tourism. I'm very fond of it but usually try to avoid driving. I also have techs working in Italy a lot and all have got some obscure fine at some point. Often months after the fact, as noted above. Part of life there.

If we've booked their car through our business travel agent, I get them to fight it - sometimes successfully.

I usually drive to Ravenna from Venice or get train from Bologna.

Our techs do that run and also have to drive from Naples to job sites in the Basilicata mountain valleys - took them a while to get used the Napoli section!

Even on public transport I've been caught out - especially by the Trenitalia "ticket validation" which works differently depending on whether you buy from the ticket window or from a machine. So you might never know that you need to validate your ticket if you've always bought from machine (or window, I can't remember which one automatically validates it and like most Italian bureaucracy, the answer is not intuitive).

And then in many stations, the validation machine is obscurely-placed. The first time this happened to me, I was whacked with a €40 on-the-spot fine and all the Italian passengers in the carriage were shouting at the inspector in defence of me. "Can't you see he is a foreign businessman who made an innocent mistake? At least he bought a ticket!" etc. Then they pointed out the validation machines at station platforms along the way but even they couldn't spot them at times. At least Bologna station has them at the bottom of the platform steps now.

Anyway, you might enjoy this short cartoon about Italian traffic and how doing the "right" thing can be counter-productive from the excellent Bruno Bozzetto:


Also from Bruno, his classic cartoon about life in general in Italy vs Northern Europe:

Thanks. I've only used trains very occasionally over here over the years, and luckily wasn't caught out the first time I travelled without validation.

I must have become an expert, as I once helped Danish tourists validate their tickets after they bought them.

Driving round in Naples? People told me not to do it - even people originally from there. So I've only taken the train there.

Unfortunately I can't watch the videos now. Every time I've tried watching some here, I wound up having to go put 10 Euros into my SIM card.
Regards,
Renato
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top