What's wrong with Qantas?

[anat0l]

There's been a lot of talk around in the last year or so about Qantas's performance in terms of an airline of choice to fly, both domestically and internationally.

This forum has seen plenty of legitimate gripes, spits, disservice incidents and so on about the red roo. The big ones relate to domestic travel, Qantas's "sister" LCC Jetstar and Trans-Tasman/New Zealand services (or lack there of it).

With all of this going around, why fly Qantas?

Put another way, say someone from overseas has settled in the country and set up their own business. Part of their business may involve travelling around capital centres, perhaps some smaller ones. They have no predispositions to any airline and no loyalty program memberships. Who would you recommend to them, and why?

Let's go through some points:

• DJ has a better OTP than QF.
• With some savvy searching, DJ fares are cheaper than QF even with baggage and credit card charges. Sure, no food, but it appears people are starting to care much less. (People = others besides us who are on AFF).
• QF aircraft are older, are often in need of desperate maintenance and have varying degrees of cleanliness.
• QF lounges are always more crowded than DJ lounges.
• QF withdrew from NZ domestic to be replaced with JQ. They also are closing 3-4 lounges. Before that, QFNZ was still trumped by local flag flier NZ anyway - price, availability, OTP and service. Like some people said, the only reason for QFNZ was getting status with QF even on lowest fares.
• QFF is a stiff program for redemptions and is much less flexible after QF direct sweeping only was introduced.
• Long-haul service on QF is polarised - it can be excellent but it can also be ghastly terrible
• QF is a prize melon pick for the media.
• DJ has won a swag of gongs at the latest Skytrax awards; QF didn't even come away with a consolation prize. DJ just got Choice's tick of approval for best economy cabin, too.

I'll admit my reasons for flying QF are still that I believe - perhaps blindly - that the red roo are still a worthy airline to fly. 90%+ of the time, I get a good, clean seat and cabin, the crew are up to task and friendly. Also my status with QF and the oneworld benefits it brings would be difficult to go without or reproduce if I didn't fly QF domestically. I guess I should openly admit that I am a textbook case of loyalty-induced vendor lock-in.

But there are several out there that don't care for status or even points. Or lounges. Some just want transport from A to B in a cheap and efficient manner. Some might want the points but could never aspire for status; in which case I think Velocity was somewhat heralded (I think in the last 12-24 months) that it was a very good program for earn and burn.

It seems that the only people clinging to QF are those that "need" to fly it and nothing else. Pretty weak reasoning and one that could be very well shaken up by this recent tender by the Government.

QF has pretty much abandoned NZ (inter- and intra-) to a token effort.

More JQ routes are appearing on the radar rather than QF. And if people think DJ is better than QF than often they are also quick to point out that JQ is even worse than QF itself!

The QFF program has been enhanced in many unpleasant ways over the past few years. A big one that was discussed was the charging of exit row seats and the removal of premium status pax to preallocate them (free of charge).

So why is QF still mostly in the game when it seems out of touch with what constitutes a good airline?

Can it possibly be all unfair media beat-up? Surely they can't get it wrong all the time. And why then does it seem DJ hasn't made any mistakes. Nobody's perfect, right?

(And I don't think the fact that QF hasn't killed anyone is the answer)

Disclaimer: This thread is not having a go at everything non-QF or pro-QF

 

[harvyk]

Because there is nothing nicer than being in a foreign country and seeing that red roo ready to take you home.

 

[Ewing]

This on my boarding pass when flying in the US on AA is enough all by itself to book enough flights with QF to maintain oneworld status, especially after seeing how long it took my colleague (who was travelling with us and has no oneworld status) to get through security.

I've flown DJ twice, and did not like it at all. All my flights with QF have been more than pleasant (both domestic and international), and I'll continue to fly with them for that reason.

 

[notzac]

Interesting question.

My reasons for sticking with QF over the last few years have been mostly down to their having a decent partner network and oneworld bennies when travelling -- so my reasons wouldn't apply to the situation you've given (someone from overseas has settled in the country and set up their own business, which may involve travelling around capital centres, perhaps some smaller ones).

The QF domestic hard product is mostly OK in economy - nothing bad, nothing outstanding. Service levels and food tend to be a bit of a coughshoot and both seem to be getting worse over time. J is of course lovely, but it's unlikely that someone just starting a business up is going to fly around domestic J (more power to them if they do though!)

I would have no hesistation in recommending DJ to someone who had no reason or particular desire to fly with QF. If it also involved international travel .. then DJ becomes a whole lot harder to recommend. VA still don't fly to enough places, DJ internationally is reportedly still very much a LCC, there are no international lounges and you can't earn status on Velocity partners other than DJ/VA. Am very keen to see how things pan out with Velocity and DJ/VA in general over the next 12-18 months...

 

[haydensydney]

I guess Ive never felt the same about Qantas since paying for two J seats SYD-BNE-SYD and being silly enough to book the 734 bombs. At that time, I was uneducated and thought that the 737s had the same J product. I was wrong. It was cough, the seats, the service and the crew were all shocking. Previously, I had received OK service in J but this really has stuck in my memory.

Since then, I have moved the bulk of my domestic travel to DJ - the Y service is good enough and the bonus is I can pick and choose from the food menu as I see fit - in QF Y, you get thrown a bowl of prison food and in QF J you get average meals at best. You also get IFE on DJ which is a big motivator for me.

Im in my early 20's, like a bit of fun from the crew, enjoy eating what I want and enjoy watching some IFE - what does QF have to offer me? Why wouldn't I fly DJ?

I would be happy to return to QF J if they picked up their act with IFE, Seating and Food options.

 

[notzac]

...in QF Y, you get thrown a bowl of prison food...

Oh so true, especially for any SPMLs

 

[Dave Noble]

Because there is nothing nicer than being in a foreign country and seeing that red roo ready to take you home.

Before heading for a 1st suite, I'd rather see the Cathay or Emirates logo

Dave

 

[Standby]

There's been a lot of talk around in the last year or so about Qantas's performance in terms of an airline of choice to fly, both domestically and internationally.

This forum has seem plenty of legitimate gripes, spits, disservice incidents and so on about the red roo. The big ones relate to domestic travel, Qantas's "sister" LCC Jetstar and Trans-Tasman/New Zealand services (or lack there of it).

With all of this going around, why fly Qantas?

Put another way, say someone from overseas has settled in the country and set up their own business. Part of their business may involve travelling around capital centres, perhaps some smaller ones. They have no predispositions to any airline and no loyalty program memberships. Who would you recommend to them, and why?


Let's go through some points:

• DJ has a better OTP than QF.
• With some savvy searching, DJ fares are cheaper than QF even with baggage and credit card charges. Sure, no food, but it appears people are starting to care much less. (People = others besides us who are on AFF).
• QF aircraft are older, are often in need of desperate maintenance and have varying degrees of cleanliness.
• QF lounges are always more crowded than DJ lounges.
• QF withdrew from NZ domestic to be replaced with JQ. They also are closing 3-4 lounges. Before that, QFNZ was still trumped by local flag flier NZ anyway - price, availability, OTP and service. Like some people said, the only reason for QFNZ was getting status with QF even on lowest fares.
• QFF is a stiff program for redemptions and is much less flexible after QF direct sweeping only was introduced.
• Long-haul service on QF is polarised - it can be excellent but it can also be ghastly terrible
• QF is a prize melon pick for the media.
• DJ has won a swag of gongs at the latest Skytrax awards; QF didn't even come away with a consolation prize. DJ just got Choice's tick of approval for best economy cabin, too.

I'll admit my reasons for flying QF are still that I believe - perhaps blindly - that the red roo are still a worthy airline to fly. 90%+ of the time, I get a good, clean seat and cabin, the crew are up to task and friendly. Also my status with QF and the oneworld benefits it brings would be difficult to go without or reproduce if I didn't fly QF domestically. I guess I should openly admit that I am a textbook case of loyalty-induced vendor lock-in.

But there are several out there that don't care for status or even points. Or lounges. Some just want transport from A to B in a cheap and efficient manner. Some might want the points but could never aspire for status; in which case I think Velocity was somewhat heralded (I think in the last 12-24 months) that it was a very good program for earn and burn.

It seems that the only people clinging to QF are those that "need" to fly it and nothing else. Pretty weak reasoning and one that could be very well shaken up by this recent tender by the Government.

QF has pretty much abandoned NZ (inter- and intra-) to a token effort.

More JQ routes are appearing on the radar rather than QF. And if people think DJ is better than QF than often they are also quick to point out that JQ is even worse than QF itself!

The QFF program has been enhanced in many unpleasant ways over the past few years. A big one that was discussed was the charging of exit row seats and the removal of premium status pax to preallocate them (free of charge).

So why is QF still mostly in the game when it seems out of touch with what constitutes a good airline?

Can it possibly be all unfair media beat-up? Surely they can't get it wrong all the time. And why then does it seem DJ hasn't made any mistakes. Nobody's perfect, right?

(And I don't think the fact that QF hasn't killed anyone is the answer)

Disclaimer: This thread is not having a go at everything non-QF or pro-QF

I think most of the comments are subjective to personal taste.
For me the main reason I travel QF is the network offered, the frequency increasing my choice and the 1st point you have incorrectly mentioned poor OTP(and Flight Canx I suppose) QF IS superior to DJ . They get me there when I need to be there.Onboard and lounges I dont have aproblem and Domestically the QF terminals I think are way ahead of DJ... I have friends who loved DJ but dumped them after 3 massive delays in a row,they now travel TT(3 times in the past 3 months) and wonder why they bothered with DJ(even though I warn them a TT canx means your up S**t creek without a paddle vs DJ and QF who will actually treat you with some respect. Again lots of subjectivity here

 

[Joshua]

As usual each to their own. I'm the typical person who you'd expect would go with DJ. Younger, self-funded flyer, time-flexible etc. But no, entirely QF of recent - ignoring a Tiger flight out of random interest.

Obviously OW status is a big pull, the overall products don't strike me as different enough to care. I've looked hard and considered it but my choice remains the same.

Let's go through some points:

• DJ has a better OTP than QF.
• With some savvy searching, DJ fares are cheaper than QF even with baggage and credit card charges. Sure, no food, but it appears people are starting to care much less. (People = others besides us who are on AFF).
• QF aircraft are older, are often in need of desperate maintenance and have varying degrees of cleanliness.
• QF lounges are always more crowded than DJ lounges.
• QF withdrew from NZ domestic to be replaced with JQ. They also are closing 3-4 lounges. Before that, QFNZ was still trumped by local flag flier NZ anyway - price, availability, OTP and service. Like some people said, the only reason for QFNZ was getting status with QF even on lowest fares.
• QFF is a stiff program for redemptions and is much less flexible after QF direct sweeping only was introduced.
• Long-haul service on QF is polarised - it can be excellent but it can also be ghastly terrible

• 
  
  So in my experience:
  • Only major delays I've experienced are on DJ. GF had to wait 3 hours for mechanical, only for a further 3-4 hour delay announcement. Ended up just leaving and asking for a flight the following day. Ended up just leaving and asking for a flight the following day.
  • Unless buying ages out, DJ is *always* more expensive. With my pattern of buying I'm probably looking at paying $50-200 more r/t on DJ.. not counting luggage & food.
  • Plane wise, I'd pick a 738 over an embracer - so that moots IFE besides I BYO in this area - and don't want to pay more... again
  • Under Velocity I wouldn't get lounge access from what I've flown / paid, so any lounge better than none I'm guessing
  • NZ is not relevant for me but would probably go for AirNZ anyway
  • Depending on where you want to fly, I don't feel stuck w/ QF internationally given oneworld
  • I'm somewhat apathetic to using points, but originally velocity points couldn't be used anywhere I'd want to go anyway
  
  For me it really comes down to cost and then status. While I could save a little on DJ occasionally, overall they are significantly more expensive from my searching and then there's the paying for everything extra model. Furthermore their bottom fares now lack the flexibility that QF still offers. I can't see myself gaining the same status on DJ and certainly have less chance of enjoying said status on overseas holidays.
  
  I think we know what's wrong with Qantas. So why isn't Virgin Blue savaging them? Public perception? - not the way the media reports. Maybe that's the real question.

 

[Keith009]

I fly mostly internationally so can't comment on the domestic services. I fly Qantas because they match my tastes and preferences, and are probably the best airline I've ever flown in terms of service. So why settle for anything less? There is also a reasonably good partner network to fall back on if QF doesn't fly a particular route.

Domestically, it's all a wash as the flights are mostly so short, given most of my domestic flights are to SYD or CBR. I stick with Qantas for SCs and status of course, but now that I've got free Priority Pass membership I'm not averse to giving DJ a go from time to time. I draw the line at TT and onestar unless in exceptional circumstances like Flounge runs on JQ30.

 

[crazydave98]

For me the main reason I travel QF is the network offered, the frequency increasing my choice and the 1st point you have incorrectly mentioned poor OTP(and Flight Canx I suppose) QF IS superior to DJ . I have friends who loved DJ but dumped them after 3 massive delays in a row,they now travel TT(3 times in the past 3 months) and wonder why they bothered with DJ(even though I warn them a TT canx means your up S**t creek without a paddle vs DJ and QF who will actually treat you with some respect.

Standby, I agree with you that most preferences/comments are subjective, but your comment on OTP is factually incorrect. Virgin Blue has had fewer cancellations and more flights leave on time than Qantas every single financial year since records began 5 years ago. Follow this link and download each of the financial year pdf reports for yourself to verify. Airline On Time Performance Annual Reports

I am sorry that we lost your friends as guests and understand their frustration, but equally sorry to say it will only be a matter of time before they have an equally bad experience with another airline. As you correctly point out one delay on the wrong airline has the potential to be much more disruptive than several delays on airlines with decent networks.

Any comments about network subjective - it depends on where you want to fly. If you are a business person flying to the Gold Coast for example (and yes there are lots of them) there simply is no Qantas network. It may surprise some members to learn that Virgin Blue has 8 more domestic destinations than Qantas services with jets, and 8 more than Jetstar, and only one less destination than the two of them put together (which situation will be remedied).

Of course there are many QantasLink turboprop destinations not serviced by Virgin Blue. But then there are also Skywest turboprop routes with DJ code which are not serviced by Qantas. So my advice to someone settling in Australia would be to do your own homework on where and how often you fly.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[aus_flyer]

Since then, I have moved the bulk of my domestic travel to DJ

Quite frankly, I am shocked.

What happened to "b*itch please, I don't fly economy" ???

 

[Keith009]

Quite frankly, I am shocked.

What happened to "b*itch please, I don't fly economy" ???

LOL. But DJ is LCC(ish), so maybe it's not considered "economy." There's also PE.

 

[Reggie]

It may surprise some members to learn that Virgin Blue has 8 more domestic destinations than Qantas services with jets, and 8 more than Jetstar, and only one less destination than the two of them put together (which situation will be remedied).

cheers

CrazyDave98

Out of curiosity which destination is this - PBO? Or are you classing that with Qantas Link

 

[harvyk]

Any comments about network subjective - it depends on where you want to fly. If you are a business person flying to the Gold Coast for example (and yes there are lots of them) there simply is no Qantas network.

No but JQ does fly into OOL, and QF flys into BNE, which if your talking north GC it doesn't take long to drive down there especially once you get onto the pacific motorway. Yes I am one of those business people who has gone to the GC for work...

Brand loyalty is a funny thing. I am loyal to QF. I don't look at any other airlines when booking my trips, and I believe that loyalty has paid off. I expect it would take QF a string of repeated mess-up's for me to consider switching to another airline (although I did once do a protest flight with AirNZ and made sure QF knew about it, QF has treated me very well since that)

On the same token I know people who are loyal to DJ, and as far as they are concerned DJ can do no evil.

In the original post, a lot of what has been listed is very subjective to who it is flying, what their past and current experience has been (for example, if a pax only ever flew on the A380, they wouldn't be complaining about older aircraft) and what they want to get out of FF programs.

Also just finally the OTP, do I care that DJ had a better OTP between BNE - PER, not really as it's a route I'll probably never fly, but do I care that QF had a better OTP between CBR - ADL, absolutely as it's a flight I have done 3 times this year. OTP across all routes is a great sales tool for DJ, but when push comes to shove I don't really care about the OTP of airports and routes I never fly.

 

[simongr]

Interestingly for me OTP is not a major concern - I always schedule earlier flights than I really need when going to MEL and on the way back I am normally walking out of the office finishing my last meeting in the car park so a little late departure is not a trauma.

Domestically i don't have a choice about QF/DJ but if I did I would stick to QF due to the upgrade opportunities, earning and using status that contributes to my international travel enjoyment.

 

[nlagalle]

I think yes it comes down to personal preference. Mine is with QF. I have rarely had bad service from them. Sometimes I read some posts and think maybe I have lowered my expectations over the years (and not just flying, in general). But to me I like it as i have access to the QP (and it has been a lot less crowded of late I've noticed). Lately the staff have been really good too. I've lucked getting exit row seats on 8 of about 10 requests too. Plus of course the SC's are helpful. Direct sweep is no issue as I have an Amex plat card.

Also QF have given our company an extra baggage allowance, subject to certain conditions. This was very handy returning from the Olympics last year!!!

In the last 4 weeks I have had 4 trips to SYD and one to PER. only 1 flight was delayed, and it was by 15 minutes. Generally that doesn't faze me too much.

On my trip to Perth when I checked in i was informed that the IFE was not working on the flight and was offered 2 $30 vouchers to buy some books etc. There was no prompting by me for anything she just gave them to me when I got the boarding passes. To top it off they managed to get all the audio channels working anyway!

anyway that is my 2c worth!

Nick

 

[pauly7]

It may surprise some members to learn that Virgin Blue has 8 more domestic destinations than Qantas* (*includes only services with jets, excludes all Qantas turboprop aircraft)

AHAHA Dave, yes interesting, QFLink isn't really Qantas right...mmmmm You should make this into a classic screaming DJ billboard with a big fat asterix! Fwd to your copywriter @ the agency!

 

[PaulC83]

It may surprise some members to learn that Virgin Blue has 8 more domestic destinations than Qantas services with jets, and 8 more than Jetstar, and only one less destination than the two of them put together (which situation will be remedied).

Not quite sure this is correct Dave, my two most common destinations are AYQ and ASP (because I live in one and commonly work/travel from the other). AYQ is serviced by QF jet from SYD, and ASP is by QF. So thats two destinations .

Please note that my leaving from supporting DJ was due to the large number of cancellations on the ADL->ASP route by DJ before they pulled out of the route altogether. Now the choice is pretty simple, sans TT flying 3 times a week, which is no good for a weekend visit to ADL.

 

[Chicken or Beef]

. . . and sometimes it just comes down to the basics. Passengers actual expectations, their last experience and whether they are generally fed up with lots of other things in life and can never be happy with anything!

Didn't get upgrade = bad flight
Didn't get seat that I really wanted and had to have as it's got my name on it = bad flight
Sat next to obese person who took up my armrest = bad flight
Wouldn't let me bring an extra guest into the QP = rude staff
Trolley dolly didn't smile my way when she went past = bad attitude
Came late to airport and they wouldn't let me on = rude staff
Cheap suitcase that I picked up at K-Mart fell apart when I stuffed 32kg into it = careless baggage staff

I don't get bad service from any airline because I am a grateful and gracious person who gets back what I put out!

"I've learned that you can tell a lot about a person by the way (s)he handles these three things: a rainy day, lost luggage, and tangled Christmas tree lights."
— Maya Angelou