Relative value: QFF and Velocity points

[Mr H]

I have collected QFF points for a few years now, mainly through credit cards, basically just because... I have also accumulated some Velocity points, mainly through flying and Flybuys.

I have no status and fly infrequently. I like to use redemptions for premium cabin flights but I know some people use points for other things including economy flights and/or gift cards. Each to their own.

I have never tried to use QFF points but I understand it is difficult to get premium cabin flights without QF status - but there may be availability with OW partners. Even then, I believe the surcharges are high.

Recently, I converted Velocity points to Krisflyer (pre devaluation) and have booked redemption flights to Central Asia with SQ/*A in a mixture of F and J. The redemption rates seemed reasonable, the surcharges were minimal and there was availability at T minus a few months.

This made me think that Velocity points were pretty good, when previously I had imagined them to be the poor relation to QFF?

So my question is, if QFF and Velocity points were tradeable, how many QFF points would you give up for 1000 Velocity - or how many Velocity would you give up for 1000 QFF.

 

[cove]

Without status you may do better redemptions with VA compared with QF.
Maybe VA points are worth about 5% more for flights in Australia.

 

[andye]

There was a time I would have said VA was 10-20% better than a QF point largely due to the surcharge difference.

With reduced premium transpacific VA/DL availability, Etihad surcharges and the worsened Krisflyer transfer rate I'd put VA ahead for domestic but behind for international
* I've not tested ringing up VA for 'unseen' availability that can be seen on the KF website but may be an area of residual good international value

 

[cove]

I make my Kris Miles using St George Amplify and would not try a transfer from Velocity as the damage is so high.

 

[odysseus]

They're both currencies. It's like saying, is the USD worth more or less than the AUD (beyond their conversion rates).

Each has a purpose, it depends what your uses are as to how useful either will be. As said above, domestically may be better for VA, but QF can be better depending where you travel in AU. Equally the VA tie up with SQ is good for some Asian ports, but if you travel to South America or Europe, QF will likely be better. Hence each person's preferences will put a different weighting - and that's aside from the alliances and status.

 

[theblank]

I just consider all points to be worth 1 cent. Its easier on your head.

 

[33kft]

Totally subjective. I primatily use my QFF points to upgrade fare class or for OW RTW redemptions. Because I don't often try flat out J/F redemptions but instead upgrade from purchased fare class, I see approx 50-60% hit rate and no surcharge, and I get SC and points at original fare class rate.

Others may not like my approach, hence why it is entirely subjective. It wouldn't suit your use case, for example.

 

[cove]

Tomorrow we are using 40,000 VA points each for an A330 run to MEL from PER in J. I think that is worth more than one cent per point as the business suite is pretty good.

 

[Mr H]

I just consider all points to be worth 1 cent. Its easier on your head.

I can see that would be easier, but it implies that one point in every frequent flyer scheme is equally valuable and equally desirable. I don't think that's the case. Right now, given my own personal redemption habits (intercontinental, multiple sector, multiple carrier, premium cabins) I would much rather have Velocity than QFF.

 

[RichardMEL]

Obviously the "value" of a loyalty point (QF, VA, SQ, UA, Hilton, IHG, etc etc etc) is all relative and subjective to our uses.

Internally the companies have a base "value" of a point, say 1c/point, or fraction thereof, and thus when someone redeems for a toaster at say 6-10c/point (I am just making up this number for the sake of example) there's a solid profit on that.

As we know, QF Loyalty is one of the most profitiable parts of the QF Group so there's a message there.

It's also interesting to note that some years bakc AC spun off their Aeroplan loyalty unit/FF program to an external company... now, or very soon, they are rolling it back in to AC - I think they realised the value to their bottom line.

At any rate the loyalty economics aside, "value" is very subjective IMHO and since points can be used for multiple purposes, they differ greatly. Plus, if one can't get what they WANT to use the points for (eg that family holiday to Hawaii ) then the value will be less to them.

Me, I'm usually an "points for upgrade" guy because that, with my P1 status, usually comes through and gives me a value potentlally in the thousands of dollars for the revenue difference between say J ad F without the fuel curcharges (already paid for) and taxes (ditto). However in the past couple of years I have also redeemed a reasonably last minute F award MEL-LAX to cover a missing hole in a trip and that worked out perfectly, and I also redeemed for MH F(before it went away?!!) in lieu of the high fare vs the product difference from J. Being reasonably points rich this was a good redemption for me personal as I got the product without the price tag and not a huge hit on my points balance. In a similar vein I used UA miles for SQ an TG J/F to return with a reasonable outlay and small tax hit and again there was value there relative to a revenue ticket.

However I know people who DO redeem for toasters or in one person's case when she thought QF was going bust, spent her just under 200k points on woolies vouchers. She was happy with the result and found value there while I suspect many on AFF would scoff and laugh.

So really it's a bit like beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

 

[Mr H]

However I know people who DO redeem for toasters ... So really it's a bit like beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

But would you get a better (or cheaper) toaster with QFF or Velocity?

 

[JohnK]

Roughly at 1c per point but Qantas a little more valuable due to more options in SE Asia.

Note can get close to 2c per point redeeming some last minute domestic flights.

 

[Tallfont]

Roughly at 1c per point but Qantas a little more valuable due to more options in SE Asia.

Note can get close to 2c per point redeeming some last minute domestic flights.

I don't think it can be 1c per QF point. I just blew 177,000 x 2 for a PER-DOH-BRU on Qatar in F for over Easter. At an advertised fare of around $11,700 that equates to just over 6.6c per QF point.

 

[gty222]

I don't think it can be 1c per QF point. I just blew 177,000 x 2 for a PER-DOH-BRU on Qatar in F for over Easter. At an advertised fare of around $11,700 that equates to just over 15c per QF point.

How much were the taxes and charges?

 

[Tallfont]

Taxes and charges came in at $AU515 each which I didn't think was too bad. F to Doha and J to Brussels.

 

[andye]

How much were the taxes and charges?

Nice redemption but isnt it 6.6c?
Not to mention how much would you have really paid for a cash fare?

 

[Tallfont]

Nice redemption but isnt it 6.6c?
Not to mention how much would you have really paid for a cash fare?

You are quite right andye. That's why I failed high school maths! I have edited the original post.

Agree, the $11,700 was from the Qatar website. I am sure a bit of shopping around could reduce that a little.

Still, as you say it is a nice redemption. I am pretty happy with the deal!

 

[JohnK]

I don't think it can be 1c per QF point. I just blew 177,000 x 2 for a PER-DOH-BRU on Qatar in F for over Easter. At an advertised fare of around $11,700 that equates to just over 6.6c per QF point.

That depends on whether you value the fare at $11,700. I certainly don't value business/first class that much more than economy.

My example is say BNE-BKK. Business class is listed as $3000+ and economy at say $700. I would pay $3000 for business class, I would pay maybe 50% over economy. I may have paid more in the past when alone but now need to purchase 3 x airfares.

So essentially 56,000 QFF points + $340 for economy award valued at $700 or 120,000 QFF points + $340 for business award valued at $1050 or are taxes higher.

Am I even get 1c on any of these awards?

 

[Mr H]

Not to mention how much would you have really paid for a cash fare?

This is important. I don't pay for first class tickets and would never spend $11,700 travelling from PER-BRU, regardless of how much luxury came with it. If I were willing to pay, say, a maximum of $2500 for travelling in some style, then I would have to value the miles at 2500/177000 = 1.4c per point.

A real question is how may points from program A would you swap for a point in program B. Velocity lets you do this for real in transferring between VA and SQ. I did transfer at a rate of 1.35 VA for 1 SQ and think I got good value for it. My itinerary is difficult to price in cash terms - my guess is around $22,000 for 216,000 SQ points. That is a value for an SQ point of 10.2c - and a value for the VA points I swapped of 7.5c. But if I had had to pay cash money, I could not have justified more than about $3000 for the route - so a value for the SQ point of 1.4c and for the VA points of almost exactly 1c a point.

Would I swap at the new rate of 1.55 SQ for 1 VA - probably not.

 

[burmans]

They're both currencies. It's like saying, is the USD worth more or less than the AUD (beyond their conversion rates).

Que, what do you think Forex Rates are if not the markets assesment of relative value?