QFF Platinum requesting release of extra Classic award seats?

[MrJetset]

Is it likely that Qantas uses other criteria for the "bot" beyond the fare class availability that can be seen by ExpertFlyer? Does the passenger's own profile (net customer value or similar), play a part?

Yes. There are many factors.

QF have a customer ranking system, I don’t remember the acronym.

I have also been told by agents length of status, fares purchased and amounts of requests are also factored into the droid. I cannot attest to the validity of this, though.

 

[Captain Halliday]

amounts of requests are also factored into the droid.

We’ll probably never know if this is accurate.

I’ve had occasions when I’ve requested a particular flight and the agent has proactively thrown in +/-3 days either side or tried from other nearby ports.

If it’s true that multiple requests affects your chance of a seat being released, it would explain recent rejections for me where it’s been showing as I9.

 

[RichardMEL]

QF have a customer ranking system, I don’t remember the acronym.

PCV.

 

[sudoer]

Is it likely that Qantas uses other criteria for the "bot" beyond the fare class availability that can be seen by ExpertFlyer? Does the passenger's own profile (net customer value or similar), play a part?

I was told by a HBA agent that the yield management team may program the bot to limit the total number of releasable seats on specific flights/routes. For example a QF A380 has 70 business seats, there could be a hard cap of 4 x U seats released, but after this EF would probably still show I9 until revenue seats start to fill up.

This matches my experience, I've almost always been successful requesting seats at T-353 on very high demand routes. (QF2 LHR-SYD, QF25/26 SYD-HND vv during cherry blossom season, etc)

If there was any criteria specific to the QFF member I would expect it to be the number of requests in a certain period. But then again, I was successful in requesting QF2 LHR-SYD seats after consecutive months of having other seats released.. so I don't think this is a huge factor. I expect my QF PCV to be relatively low.

 

[RichardMEL]

I was told by a HBA agent that the yield management team may program the bot to limit the total number of releasable seats on specific flights/routes. For example a QF A380 has 70 business seats, there could be a hard cap of 4 x U seats released, but after this EF would probably still show I9 until revenue seats start to fill up.

This matches my experience, I've almost always been successful requesting seats at T-353 on very high demand routes. (QF2 LHR-SYD, QF25/26 SYD-HND vv during cherry blossom season, etc)

If there was any criteria specific to the QFF member I would expect it to be the number of requests in a certain period. But then again, I was successful in requesting QF2 LHR-SYD seats after consecutive months of having other seats released.. so I don't think this is a huge factor. I expect my QF PCV to be relatively low.

This is standard YM practice across most (if not all) airlines, hotels, etc. How much inventory you have, what you are prepared to sell at certain price points(including "award" - which has a price).. and this can all be very specific not only to specific routes and aircraft but days of the week in months depending on demand profiles and historic data. An obvious example is we all know people want to go places BEFORE Christmas (but not ON Christmas day) or during school holidays etc. The models all factor this in of course - such that availability of cheaper inventory(including reward) will be far less, if any, because they(QF, hotel, whatever) know most likely demand > supply so they can extract a yield premium.

Plus even if flights show say I9 some things to remember there - that the 9 represents a max number of seats the airline will sell in that bucket in one transaction. That's all. Some other airlines use a lower number as the max. AA seems to use 7 for example, NZ I have noticed is 4, at least in the J inventory. The other thing to remember is that many flights, of course, are not independent entities. What I mean by that is that more often than not a flight will be part of a connection and looking at a flight, say SYD-LAX, in isolation doesn't tell the whole story. Showing availability is only part of the overall story of any specific flight.

I've known a few folks who have worked in YM for various airlines over the years and seems to me from what I've been told that as much of it is "art" as it is science.. as in there are so many variables you simply can't factor in in any realistic way (for example, the planners in 2019 had no way of knowing a pandemic would hit the next year...)... and schedules and forward planning is done well in advance (or historically was, probably is far more month by month now, which is why we now see things like route cancels, equipment changes and so on within just a month or two of travel and so much disruption).

While the "bot" may then look at some factors of the specific requestor (the "PCV" for example) and use a specific set of criteria to either approve or not.

My experience of the manual review recently seemed to be as much a case of customer service as much as probably reviewing my profile, recent requests (very few over the years), whatever my PCV (probably quite low) to QF is and whatever. From the interactions I had with the VIP Team it was 50/50 if they would do the override for me. Luckily for me they said yes (I should hold on that until I've actually flown it!! ) and I fully understood this given how the flight looked I was very much prepared for a "no." but really appreciated that "they" discussed it (I was told the agent would dicuss it 'with the team' if it was OK. There was no reference specifically to YM or any other department, but that just could have been the wording used to simplify it for the customer).


I'm well aware that holding (thanks to status extensions) the high status allows me this level of discretion and I'm very thankful for it, but then again potentially a factor was the 2,000+ SC's I'd earned this year so they knew they had a fair bit of revenue from me as was. Possibly if I only had one or two flights the answer might well have been forgetaboutit....

there's also going to be a human factor involved too when it comes to manual reviews. Not only the person/people making the assessment, but potentially the approach of the customer too. eg my recent requests have been more along the lines like "I'm probably asking for too much here but is there any chance...." thus setting up the understanding that I had an expectation of no rather than an entitlement expectation of yes. Potentially the way one approaches the request can be a factor just on a human to human level where a human has discretion. A bit like the old mantra of being polite to agents and other service staff because they can make or break your experience and having a certain attitude will not endear you.

Anyway back to the YM.. yes the programmed in limits can apply to routes, flights on routes, days and even specific flights on specific days (an example of this might be flights into Melbourne leading up to the AFL Grand Final).

 

[PuravidaTC]

I'm well aware that holding (thanks to status extensions) the high status allows me this level of discretion and I'm very thankful for it, but then again potentially a factor was the 2,000+ SC's I'd earned this year so they knew they had a fair bit of revenue from me as was. Possibly if I only had one or two flights the answer might well have been forgetaboutit....

If the airline industry is anything like the gaming industry when it comes to status, it's your most recent 2,000+ SC's that holds the most weight versus your x years of holding status.. there is a saying in most casinos when looking for a comp "your only as valuable as your last visit or two" when it comes to what you will get from a host.

You might get to keep your status and the few nights/perks that come with it, but you won't get the "true" value of such status without recent action/flights etc.

 

[RichardMEL]

If the airline industry is anything like the gaming industry when it comes to status, it's your most recent 2,000+ SC's that holds the most weight versus your x years of holding status.. there is a saying in most casinos when looking for a comp "your only as valuable as your last visit or two" when it comes to what you will get from a host.

You might get to keep your status and the few nights/perks that come with it, but you won't get the "true" value of such status without recent action/flights etc.

yep. Agree fully.

Doesn't really matter what you did in the past. It's "what have you done for me lately?" kind of thing.

and in normal times this behaviour is supported by the usual status expiry and renewal process which has been skewed by all the extensions. Someone could hold status but not flown since late 2019, or they could have flown yesterday. QF cares way more about the revenue they have from us now.

 

[MrJetset]

PCV.

That's it.

We only fly F international and J where that isn't an option.

I believe the agent meant how many requests you've made that have been granted, not total requests as whole.

It would not surprise me if the programming of approvals is highly scientific and mathematical.

 

[RichardMEL]

That's it.

We only fly F international and J where that isn't an option.

I believe the agent meant how many requests you've made that have been granted, not total requests as whole.

It would not surprise me if the programming of approvals is highly scientific and mathematical.

oh for sure. SO many functions of an airline operation that are opaque to customers - like revenue/yield management - are based on forecast models based on history and known factors that can be plugged in (like you know when school holidays are, bug events likely to up demand, and so on). By the same token a measure of customer "worth" (a.k.a. PCV) would in no way be as simple as "Earned X SC in Y period" or even "Spent $a on fares" - because all of these have nuances. It's about the yield generated by a passenger. So am I more profitable as a customer to QF if I purchase paid F to LAX vs 50 Discount Y MEL-SYD returns. But wait, there's more... how is my revenue profile made up? Am I a card points churner who then wants to spend them on premium tickets or am I a "road warrior" generating real yield on QF metal flights.. or is most of it via partner spend? Or am I generating most of my points activity via non flying - ie PC/PCP) and so on. All of these would HAVE to be factors into determining the "value" to the company of a particular customer - and then using that to decide (either automatically, or manually) if they should be given the nod or not.

Other factors too perhaps - forward bookings (plus a projection based on history potentially). Maybe even customer age and other profile aspects (which, remember, the big data mining operation knows based on links with things like Woolies, QF branded CC spend profiles etc). I am quite certain that, even without me specifically having to tell them, they have a decent profile of me to know I'm a single guy o a certain age(which they know from QFF profile), my income is in a range(based on spend profile), I have certain preferences (again from spend profile) such that I spend a certain amount or % on discretionary spend like travel, hotels, eating out etc vs bills for utilities.. and other things can be extrapolated potentially such do I have a mortgage or not.. pet(s) or not.. do I drive (or not). It probably gets granular to the kinds of fares I buy (full fare? flex? discount Y?) and/or hotel brands or other spend... so do I eat and stay high end or more lower end. All of these thousands of data points build up a profile of customers. I'd probably be freaked out to know exactly what they have on me (hopefully surprised if some of it is wrong?! lol) but I imagine there are fairly accurate profiles of who customers are and their habits and so on. This is the age we live in. Now I don't particularly care if "they" know what sort of milk I buy, or I prefer certain locations and food types... I give up this info when I agree to link a CC for points, or join WWR or do the ALL linking, and all the other things.

A lot of it, of course, I am sure mirrors a bit of human nature and common sense in a way. I frequent a local Bakery on a reasonable basis because I love their Banh Mi. Over time they get to know me as that guy who comes in every week or so and even greet me by name. Most times they throw in a spring roll or something with my order. Why? In its simplest form it's a reward for loyalty, but also says to me "hey we notice you, we appreciate you spend your $$ with us on a regular enough basis that we recognise you" ... no it's not giving me a seat in F to LAX on a pretty fiull flight, but I do believe the general principle holds true. I'm a regular customer over time, I still spend with hem, and that is rewarded. OTOH I wouldn't expect this if I hadn't been to the place in three years....

So I can imagine QF would assign less value (but can always be corrected!! ) to say a plat status member that has achieved it via DSC earn and/or perhas earn via partners with points balances pushed up by card churning. This is not to mean I personally think these things are bad (I am a DSC guy from way back!) - just that you can see that that profile of customer, while earning some $$$ for the company via the sales of points to third parties and so on, is probably less high yield than the business pax buying high Y fares doing weekly commutes MEL-SYD and doing it "the hard way" and using more direct channels into the company (eg: QBR, direct spend to QF on flights, perhaps hotels etc).

I find it all fascinating myself. I'd love to get insight into all of this kind of stuff though I'm sure they could tell me, then have to kill me

At all times I remember that I am a product assigned a value to the corporate entity as much as I am a customer being served a glass of bubbly on a flight or in a lounge.

 

[sudoer]

So I can imagine QF would assign less value (but can always be corrected!! ) to say a plat status member that has achieved it via DSC earn and/or perhas earn via partners with points balances pushed up by card churning.

I would expect it to be purely connected to spend rather than DSC usage - for example:

Someone who earns WP using DSC on weekly SYD-CBR Y bookings is going to generate $30k+ revenue.
Someone who earns WP without DSC on a few SYD-MEL-DPS J bookings is going to generate ~$8k revenue.

The CBR flyer should have a far higher PCV.

 

[RichardMEL]

I would expect it to be purely connected to spend rather than DSC usage - for example:

Someone who earns WP using DSC on weekly SYD-CBR Y bookings is going to generate $30k+ revenue.
Someone who earns WP without DSC on a few SYD-MEL-DPS J bookings is going to generate ~$8k revenue.

The CBR flyer should have a far higher PCV.

Which makes sense of course.

I suppose also DSC implies less flying/spend for most so that would take into account DSC anyway. So probably it's regardless of DSC in your hypothetical example because of the overall spend.

I guess I was thinking in more general terms, and specially from the perspective of a member of this forum where a general aim of most of us is to lower the $/SC cost as much as possible, with DSC as an obvious tool to use and so those who play the game to the max (which of course is a tiny % of overall QF customers) would, in theory, amass SCs at a much lower cost and thus revenue to QF than someone doing it the more normal way.

I'm sure people from QF are reading these ponderings and having a quiet giggle to themselves...

 

[Ade]

On 03Aug2022 - Requested 4x Y MEL-SYD for 21Aug2022. The agent on the phone said that she is going to put in a request and provide me with a booking reference. The request will be processed within 48 hours.

On 05Aug2022 - received an email that there is an outcome on my request. I'm to call 13 13 13 to discuss re the outcome. Before calling, I checked the My Trips page in my QF and the trip was there. So I'm kinda sure that the request is successful. On the phone with 13 13 13 to pay the taxes & points.

Update : After 42 minutes & 15 seconds on the call, taxes paid, points deducted and "travel document" issued. e-ticket could take up to 24 hours. Excellent service from the CPT centre.

 

[RealtimeY]

Update : After 42 minutes & 15 seconds on the call, taxes paid, points deducted and "travel document" issued. e-ticket could take up to 24 hours. Excellent service from the CPT centre.

While it sounds like the process is working, has it always been the case that you'd have to call up a second time just to make the payment?

 

[Ade]

While it sounds like the process is working, has it always been the case that you'd have to call up a second time just to make the payment?

If the request goes thru, what I think is, the manual processing/approval queue for reward seats, then yes. We need to call again to pay the points & taxes.

This is because, there were no 4x reward seats for sale on the QF website. So I called in and put a request to see if QF will release 4 seats for me (as a platinum benefit favour). The agent mentioned that there are no reward seats for sale on the flight I was looking at and so she needs to put in a request for the requested seats to be released from one of the commercial fare buckets. I think there is a team that reviews these requests to see if it it is "worth" to release 4 commercial seats as reward seat. Now, what criteria does this backend team use to determine the "worth" is not known to me. But I guess based on the historical sales, loads etc a decision will be arrived at and an email is triggered to the requestor.

However, for instance, if there was 4x reward seats for sale on the website, then I need to call nobody. Just book them as I would any $ booking.

As another example, in July I had requested 1x reward seat (happy for it to either Y or J) ex-CBR. There were no seats for sale on the website, so I called it in. The agent said that he'd put in a request and I should hear about it within 48 hours, which I did and the request was declined.

 

[Ade]

Just got off the phone requesting 1x return CBR-MEL Y reward seat.

Worth noting that this time there were no reward seats for sale on the website, I was able to request seats and it was approved immediately. Meaning, no manual processing/queue.

Initially got the CPT call centre - the agent was helping request the seats. But then she said she’s going to process the seats and will place me on hold, which was fine, but it’s been over 25 minutes and I didn’t hear a thing from the other end. I kept asking if someone is there, but no response. Went on to hold for another 5 mins and still no response. So i hung up the call called again.

This time received the HBA call centre - spoke to someone and explained what had happened. He went thru my profile and saw the booking was half done. So he said no worries, I’ll take it from here. He also said that there are slight differences in the systems that QF has in CPT and HBA. He was also to look up a certain indicator which tells him that the booking was originally attempted from CPT.

He then fixed a couple of things and completed the booking. Booking reflected in the app instantly. I was told that the e-ticket will be issued under 10 minutes.

Update : e-ticket received.

Update 2 : Worth noting that I still have not received the e-ticket for the 4x reward seats booking I made this morning from the CPT CC, but received the e-ticket for the 1x reward booking made this afternoon from HBA.

 

[Danger]

Why are people (myself included) now being told it takes up to 48 hours? Why has the process changed?

 

[I love to travel]

Why are people (myself included) now being told it takes up to 48 hours? Why has the process changed?

If you get through to Hobart immediate response from bot. Capetown is manual.

 

[voulez]

Brain trust, what's the go with requesting Y seats for internal USA flights? Looking at multiple city combos (e.g. LAX>JFK) for later in Nov and can only see Y award seats with 1 stops, although AA website show plenty of paid direct flights. Thanks

 

[Captain Halliday]

Brain trust, what's the go with requesting Y seats for internal USA flights? Looking at multiple city combos (e.g. LAX>JFK) for later in Nov and can only see Y award seats with 1 stops, although AA website show plenty of paid direct flights. Thanks

Qantas does not operate domestic USA services, so there’s no flights on which a seat release can be requested.

 

[encryptededdy]

First time requesting seats as a newly minted Platinum. Called at 7:15am but sadly didn't get Hobart. The nice operator in Fiji put in my request for me and generated a PNR.

Specifically, the PNR lists my two requested flights in P class with Status Requested. However, I note that my Frequent Flyer number is not attached to the PNR. Is this expected, or have they likely processed it incorrectly? Would it help if I added my FF number myself in MMB?

TIA.