Qantas - Arriving in LAX the night before and joining QF11 the next day?

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Hi to all,

I have attempted to search these forums for an answer, however I have struggled to find an uptodate thread.
(I'm sure my question has been answered here before - I just can't find the thread).


I last visited this forum a few years ago where I read many reports of passengers booking a flight from LAX to JFK on QF11 as part of a multi-leg ticket after arriving in LAX a few days earlier.
It was said here that the Qantas booking engine should not have been providing QF11 as an option to fly between LAX and JFK, unless you were arriving into LAX on QF93/QF11/QF15 that same morning on the same ticket.
Apparently passengers who attempted to check into QF11 at LAX were told it could not be done, despite already having the ticket purchased. For these passengers Qantas then booked them onto the next available flight to New York flying with American Airlines (or Alaska?) seemingly without too much hassle.


Fast forward to the present day and I find myself looking at making a similar booking, with the difference being the somewhat recent introduction of an evening-arrival flight into LAX from Australia - QF95.

For my multi-leg booking I am looking at flying QF95 -arriving LAX on Thursday evening (spending the night at a hotel) - with the 2nd flight being QF11 - departing LAX the following morning (Friday).

Is this connection now possible or is still considered a separate ticket and therefore ineligible to check in to QF11 at LAX (with the Qantas website's booking engine still providing QF11 as a connection option when it shouldn't be) ??

Cheers.

 

[drron]

Under 24 hours is regarded as a transit so should be fine.
Over 24 hours is regarded as a stopover hence the problem.

 

[dajop]

Interesting, you learn something every day. I always thought that stopovers were allowed ex-Australia in conjunction with QF11/12. But had read QF had cracked down on those booking the sector when passenger wasn't ticketed into/out of USA on QF services to/from Australia via awards or one world circle tickets (for example CX: HKG-LAX-> QF-JFK or BA:LHR-JFK->QF-LAX).

 

[Himeno]

The entire thing is quite confusing. The US 8th freedom (cabotage) rules state that a foreign airline can only carry international passengers on domestic routes.
Under a basic reading of this rule, it would allow say JL to carry pax from Tokyo to LA, then QF to carry them to NY.

However, different airlines interpret this rule differently. When it was just UA and QF on the AU-US route (and UA had a SYD-MEL tag), UA would often complain about the QF LAX-JFK flight, so QF limited the US domestic sector to QF pax only as it was easier to prove to the DOT that they were following the rules when it was only QF pax on that flight. This also allowed a LA stop over between QF flights to/from AU/NZ and NY.

The current problem is that the Trump DOT has changed the interpretation of the rule again. The prior interpretation allowed QF to connect pax from south pacific QF codeshares (eg from PPT) to go on QF11 to NY. The current interpretation, not so much.

 

[equus]

After having gone into considerable depth about the rules around the LAX-JFK flights (and getting the wrong information from QF chat), the rules are straightforward if paraphrased. In fact, they apply to all QF marketed domestic flights in the US (so all the QF codeshares on AA).

1. QF and QF codeshares can only be purchased on a ticket that includes a QF international leg (on QF metal)
2. QF and QF codeshares can only be purchased when any domestic legs between the QF or codeshare flight and the QF international flight is also a QF codeshare.

(and this matches the revised interpretation #himeno mentions above)

So, provided there were no intermediate flights on the ticket, there is no actual differentiation between a stop over and a transit, and the ticket should be fine. Someone more knowledgeable may need to confirm that detail however, as I was only worried about connections, not checking specifically about stop overs. Be careful of the level of knowledge of whoever answers though, as wrong answers are common.

#madrooster checked this out for me, and got 3 different answers all from the QF industry help desk.

 

[Himeno]

During a DONE3 last year, I had a number of QF codeshares within the US. 4 of the 6 AA sectors (on that ticket) were QF codeshares (was not allowed to use the codeshares for the LAX-SFO-LAX side trip), and I had no QF flight in/out of the US (JL NRT-BOS in and QR PHL-DOH out). However, I had QF2/1 (LHR-DXB-LHR) on the same ticket.

 

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Thank you all for your replies. Some interesting info provided.

Be careful of the level of knowledge of whoever answers though, as wrong answers are common.

Yes indeed.....I have had different answers given by the airline to this question.
That is why I have come here in the hope of seeking 1st hand experience from the forum members.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thank you all for your replies. Some interesting info provided.


Ah yes indeed.....I have had different answers given by the airline to this question.
That is why I have come here in the hope of seeking 1st hand experience from the forum members.

If QF allows you to book it, go ahead. As you say, not much to lose as they will accommodate you on AA metal if necessary. I don't believe QF metal->QF metal is a breach of cabotage given they are carrying their own international traffic.

The passenger is never in the wrong for booking cabotage flights. The airline and issuing agent are the ones in error. So there's zero risk to you (except perhaps for a downgrade in equipment/service on an AA flight, but then again would be same same if you couldn't fly QF due to cabotage, so nothing lost).

 

[madrooster]

1. QF and QF codeshares can only be purchased on a ticket that includes a QF international leg (on QF metal)
2. QF and QF codeshares can only be purchased when any domestic legs between the QF or codeshare flight and the QF international flight is also a QF codeshare.

I've since had written clarification from QF.

As long as the string of QF codes is maintained and one of those flights is QF transpacific metal on QF code, then it's fine to ticket everything with QF code. These rules are consistent with other carriers as well - I've since checked with a few carriers to confirm.

Examples:

SYD QF LAX
LAX QF*AA LAS
LAS QF*AA LAX
LAX QF JFK
JFK QF*AA LAX
LAX AA SYD

This is valid and allowed - all QF codes from SYD all the way to JFK and back to LAX. This is not actually a ticket-able example but I'm using it purely to illustrate what is allowed.

SYD QF LAX
LAX AA LAS
LAS QF*AA LAX
LAX QF JFK
JFK QF*AA LAX
LAX QF SYD

This is valid and allowed - the QF code chain from LAS-LAX all the way to LAX-SYD contains a QF transpacific on QF code.

SYD QF LAX
LAX AA LAS
LAS QF*AA LAX
LAX AA JFK
JFK QF*AA LAX
LAX QF SYD

This is not allowed - the LAS-LAX flight cannot be on a QF code as it is not chained with a QF coded transpacific. JFK-LAX however is fine.

SYD QF LAX
LAX QF JFK
JFK QF*BA LHR - such a codeshare doesn't exist, this is purely for illustration
LHR QF*BA OSL
CDG EK DXB
DXB QF*EK SYD

This is allowed - the LHR-OSL on QF codeshare is allowed as it connects to a QF metal international chain (SYD-LAX).

During a DONE3 last year, I had a number of QF codeshares within the US. 4 of the 6 AA sectors (on that ticket) were QF codeshares (was not allowed to use the codeshares for the LAX-SFO-LAX side trip), and I had no QF flight in/out of the US (JL NRT-BOS in and QR PHL-DOH out). However, I had QF2/1 (LHR-DXB-LHR) on the same ticket.

This actually violates the rules left, right and centre for traffic restricted codeshares. If you had a TA book this, I hope they didn't plate it on QF ticket stock as that's an ADM'able offence.

 

[Himeno]

This actually violates the rules left, right and centre for traffic restricted codeshares. If you had a TA book this, I hope they didn't plate it on QF ticket stock as that's an ADM'able offence.

These are the flights I had on the DONE3 last year.
NRT-BOS AA8476
BOS-JFK QF4648
JFK-LAX QF3100
LAX-SEA QF4143
SEA-ORD AA2261
ORD-DTW QF4895
DTW-PHL AA4570
PHL-DOH AA7951
DOH-BUD QR0199
BUD-LHR QF3503
LHR-DXB QF0002
DXB-LHR QF0001
LHR-PEK BA0039
PEK-HKG KA0997
HKG-SIN AA8899
SIN-HND QF4025

The 'connecting' DAS13 was on 081 ticket stock. Don't have the DONE3 ticket number any more, I think it was on 157 stock (I know the 2016 trip was on 157. Not sure if last year was on 081 or 157).

 

[madrooster]

These are the flights I had on the DONE3 last year.
NRT-BOS AA8476
BOS-JFK QF4648
JFK-LAX QF3100
LAX-SEA QF4143
SEA-ORD AA2261
ORD-DTW QF4895
DTW-PHL AA4570
PHL-DOH AA7951
DOH-BUD QR0199
BUD-LHR QF3503
LHR-DXB QF0002
DXB-LHR QF0001
LHR-PEK BA0039
PEK-HKG KA0997
HKG-SIN AA8899
SIN-HND QF4025

The 'connecting' DAS13 was on 081 ticket stock. Don't have the DONE3 ticket number any more, I think it was on 157 stock (I know the 2016 trip was on 157. Not sure if last year was on 081 or 157).

157 is QR. I don't think they care or check beyond their own metal/codes. I'm surprised if it was plated on QR ticket stock as they normally require 30% minimum carriage.

I've noted below what is non-compliant with codeshare rules. If whoever ticketed these didn't get an ADM, then bonus for you.

NRT-BOS AA8476
BOS-JFK QF4648 <- not allowed - needs to be chained with QF prime international transpac
JFK-LAX QF3100<- not allowed - needs to be chained with QF prime international transpac
LAX-SEA QF4143<- not allowed - needs to be chained with QF prime international transpac
SEA-ORD AA2261
ORD-DTW QF4895 <- not allowed - needs to be chained with QF prime international transpac
DTW-PHL AA4570
PHL-DOH AA7951
DOH-BUD QR0199
BUD-LHR QF3503
LHR-DXB QF0002
DXB-LHR QF0001
LHR-PEK BA0039
PEK-HKG KA0997
HKG-SIN AA8899 <- not allowed - needs to be chained with AA international
SIN-HND QF4025 <- not allowed - needs to be chained with QF international eg. SYD-SIN on QF, stopover in SIN, SIN-HND on QF*JL

 

[Himeno]

What's an ADM?

I asked the travel agent to use the codeshares that would get the most points/SC on a given flight to QFF, and they entered what ever the computer allowed.

 

[madrooster]

What's an ADM?

I asked the travel agent to use the codeshares that would get the most points/SC on a given flight to QFF, and they entered what ever the computer allowed.

ADM = agency debit memo. Basically a fine from the ticketing carrier.

You can sell all of those flights just fine and even issue a ticket for them, even if they violate traffic restrictions. But if you've violated a traffic restriction a travel agent can get a fine for such a violation from the ticketing carrier.

At most travel agency chains eg. Flight Centre, those fines come out of a consultant's pay I believe.

You as a passenger can also be inconvenienced by the operating carrier denying you boarding. Although in practice I find it doesn't happen overly often.

 

[jb747]

You have to remember the US interpretation of open skies (and any agreements).

What they mean is your open skies, not theirs.

 

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If QF allows you to book it, go ahead. As you say, not much to lose as they will accommodate you on AA metal if necessary. I don't believe QF metal->QF metal is a breach of cabotage given they are carrying their own international traffic.

The passenger is never in the wrong for booking cabotage flights. The airline and issuing agent are the ones in error. So there's zero risk to you (except perhaps for a downgrade in equipment/service on an AA flight, but then again would be same same if you couldn't fly QF due to cabotage, so nothing lost).

Thank you for the reply. Yes I might try my luck with this flight combination once I finalise my travel plans.
I see you point to do agree on the whole about "nothing lost" if it is found I am ineligible to board QF11 at LAX and moved on to an AA (or Alaskan?) flight.
However if not on QF metal I would perhaps have JetBlue as my next preferred option between LAX and JFK due to their 'free checked bag' policy and seatback IFE.
I see on AA's website only 1 of the 2 versions of their A321 has seatback IFE.
Is there a better than 50% chance that the A321's on LAX-JFK route will have seatback IFE?

Also is it safe to assume that if I book the QF11 flight, but end up being moved to an AA flight, that I will not need to pay the regular fee for my checked bag given I had initially booked the Qantas flight?

(Again I could ask the airline directly but have found that I have a better chance of getting the correct answer here at AFF )

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Normal contractual rules would apply if you were moved to AA... you have a ticket, including bags, for travel to New York. So I’d be expecting QF to either include that in the ticket, or refund you the cost of the bags if you had to purchase them. Any food you purchase on board might be a different matter.

 

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Normal contractual rules would apply if you were moved to AA... you have a ticket, including bags, for travel to New York. So I’d be expecting QF to either include that in the ticket, or refund you the cost of the bags if you had to purchase them. Any food you purchase on board might be a different matter.

Makes sense. Thanks very much.

 

[equus]

I see on AA's website only 1 of the 2 versions of their A321 has seatback IFE.
Is there a better than 50% chance that the A321's on LAX-JFK route will have seatback IFE?

But the LAX - JFK direct uses neither of these versions - it uses the A321 Transcon configuration (3 class), with seatback IFE for all. Definitely better than 50%, as close to 100% chance as IRROPs will allow.

 

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**Update**
I again contacted the airline today to ask about this flight scenario.
I explained that I am looking at a multi-city booking, with flight 1 MEL-LAX, then flight 2 being LAX-JFK the next morning and asked if this would have any conflict with the airline's cabotage policy in the US.

They started off by saying that any flight results that come up on the Qantas website's booking engine are all legitimate/confirmed.

I then repeated that it was a multi-city booking, to which the staff conveyed that all multi-city legs are considered one-way flights.
I asked if this would then consider flight #2 LAX-JFK ineligible given it would then be considered a 'domestic' leg - and the staff agreed with me.

But then went onto say that I should double check with the airline staff at the airport as they may be able to make it work(?).


I have since had another look using the Qantas website's booking engine and instead of making a multi-city:MEL-LAX, LAX-JFK booking, I instead looked at MEL-JFK as a direct route and on the same date.
The results showed that Thursday night's QF95 MEL-LAX, does not form a combination with Friday mornings QF11 LAX-JFK flight as an option that comes up in the booking search.


From that I take it my preferred multi-city booking option of checking in at LAX the following morning to join QF11 will be ineligible as it would be a separate flight from my transpac flight from Australia to America 13 hours earlier the previous day.
(Qantas wouldn't even have a check in desk open at LAX in the morning for QF11 would they, rather just a transfers counter for those passengers who arrived the same morining from Australia on QF93/QF11/QF15 right?)

For my LAX-JFK flight I pretty keen for a window seat, so I don't think I'll take the risk and book QF11, just incase I get moved to a different flight instead where I assume it will be highly unlikely that I would get select my seat as a 'standby' passenger.
I'll instead now book this flight separately with another carrier.

In conclusion I am still a little confused and disappointed as to why QF11 LAX-JFK is still coming up as a flight option on the multicity booking engine results.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That combination is showing up because, as others -including madrooster - have pointed out, this is NOT a cabotage issue. Your onward flight is directly connected to the QF coded transpacific flight.

The ‘one way flights’ is irrelevant. Airlines, under cabotage, are allowed to carry their own stopover traffic.

It is highly unlikely you’re going to run into any issues... except, as you have found out, with trying to get an answer from reservations about cabotage. Call centre agents are very good at fares. But everything else... seating, baggage, lounge access, frequent flyer points, visas.... those aren’t their areas of expertise.