Egyptair Flight MS804 Disappeared from Radar [New conclusion]

[jb747]

Flight control laws : pilot inputs are fed into the flight control computers and modified/limited within certain parameters/ envelopes (laws)?. So Direct law would mean that pilot inputs are unmodified at all levels of input from zero to the extreme?

Normal, alternate, direct law and possibly different levels of alternate?

Normal, alternate 1, alternate 2, direct are the main ones with some subsidiary laws - flare, abnormal attitude. Protections only exist in normal. Of course, protections don't exist at all in non FBW aircraft, so it shouldn't be an issue. But it is. Alternate 1 isn't much different to normal, whilst alt 2 isn't far from direct.

Do FBW aircraft have a mechanical backup in case of failure of electronic flight control signals

The 380 doesn't, but I believe the 320 has some form.

Can an aircraft be stalled in laws other than Normal law or only in direct law?

Any law but normal.

 

[wandering_fred]

I suspect the details found by the military radar systems are still not published, though may be used in assisting the search for the black boxes...

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[Skyring]

There are a couple of sensors related to the windows. The side windows can open, so there will be some related to the locking mechanism. Secondly they are heated, so there will be a couple related to that. Taking off with an unlocked window is a no no, but not particularly dangerous. If flight the pressurisation will make it virtually impossible to open. There's been a long history of window heating issues with all aircraft types.

I'm guessing that coughpit windows are heated to prevent them from fogging over on the inside and icing over on the outside? Especially on the ground; I imagine that in flight the airflow would remove any exterior buildup of frost.

What sort of heating are we talking about for these windows? A heating element as per a car's rear window seems unlikely, but if there is a fan heater arrangement to blow air across the glass, I can imagine something going wrong with that, especially if in a difficult-to-reach area where dust and light debris could accumulate.

 

[juddles]

It appears black box signals detected - but wont be a week until they can attempt recovery


EgyptAir crash: Black box signal detected by search teams - BBC News

 

[jb747]

I'm guessing that coughpit windows are heated to prevent them from fogging over on the inside and icing over on the outside? Especially on the ground; I imagine that in flight the airflow would remove any exterior buildup of frost.

Without heating, they will ice up both inside and out. Airflow won't reliably remove icing. NB it isn't fogging, but ice, like in your home freezer.

What sort of heating are we talking about for these windows? A heating element as per a car's rear window seems unlikely, but if there is a fan heater arrangement to blow air across the glass, I can imagine something going wrong with that, especially if in a difficult-to-reach area where dust and light debris could accumulate.

A layer of metal in the glass with current passed through it. A monster version of what's in your car.

 

[jb747]

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/542303bced915d1374000bbb/AAR_2-2009_N786UA.pdf

This is the sort of thing that could give MEC smoke, and is why terrorism is never as high on my list of suspects as it is for others.

 

[Quickstatus]

It appears that all history of SU-GCC except for the final flight has been deleted from Flightaware and Flightradar. Even the operator has been switched to "unknown"

Other aircraft regos belonging to Egyptair are valid...

Have these websites been asked to take the info down?

 

[juddles]

Thanks JB - just spent the last two hours reading that report. It does indeed show how things still go wrong. And this report, although of an incident that in itself was not "newsworthy", is exactly the sort of investigation, and thousands like it, that have painstakingly enabled aircraft to become so safe.

 

[moa999]

It appears that all history of SU-GCC except for the final flight has been deleted from Flightaware and Flightradar. Even the operator has been switched to "unknown"

Interesting. Have also seen press reports claiming multiple emergency landings for the aircraft in question - hard to confirm or deny if the data has been pulled

 

[jb747]

Interesting. Have also seen press reports claiming multiple emergency landings for the aircraft in question - hard to confirm or deny if the data has been pulled

It wouldn't confirm it anyway. When the stuff was up, it just showed pretty normal operations.

In any event, I read one of those media reports, and it sent the BS detector off scale.

 

[Himeno]

Interesting. Have also seen press reports claiming multiple emergency landings for the aircraft in question - hard to confirm or deny if the data has been pulled

I looked at the data on flightradar the day after the flight went down. It did list the delays, but the timings didn't look like anything strange.

 

[ethernet]

Looks to me they don't want to find it.
That 2nd French ship should be in position, but was delayed as if a picnic day event
The first French ship should have taken a sound bearing, moved a bit, and triangulated the solution?
One understands the Egypt Navy has a robo sub looking - but is it keeping the experts at bay?

So what do we NOT get information
1) Is pinger regular or intermittent ? Or failed/silent?
2) Is there a good bearing on it?
3) Why lie about a fix - 200metres would be plenty.
4) Why has ship 2 not dropped a remote yet?
5) Is someone hoping to move or remove something on the sly

Sorry to say the conduct of the operation and news blackout makes me MORE likely never to visit Egypt

 

[docjames]

They say when choosing between a conspiracy and a stuff up, stuff up usually wins on experience. But i cant help thinking more of the former mixed with some of the latter in this case.....

 

[ethernet]

They say when choosing between a conspiracy and a stuff up, stuff up usually wins on experience. But i cant help thinking more of the former mixed with some of the latter in this case.....

The third most modern response is EMBARRASSMENT, followed by a micromanaged GAG order. This is sometimes pre-pended with outright lies like DDD (Distraction, Dis-information and Deception) such as the flat denial of emergency landings claims. MAS pulled the same trickle trick, yet the Germans did Wings with record efficiency.I hazard a guess the German PR experts knew short and sweet was the best outcome.
Whereas the MAS plane is set to be a Bermuda Triangle legend for ages.

I suggest the French ships have to keep mum/stum in order to get paid in full. (They are).

Whatever - There will be a crash report, and if the voice recording is lost - there will be a LOT of suspicion.

If the 2nd ship was on the crash site on the 9th then FIVE days of nothing is a ****house performance.

Should the pingers have already failed, then I would be looking for a new black box company.

 

[OATEK]

A positive sighting: Missing EgyptAir flight MS804 plane wreckage has been spotted in Mediterranean Sea

 

[ethernet]

Reported on the BBC at 03:20GMT:

EgyptAir flight 'disappears from radar' - BBC News

UPDATE: Resting places located
Crashed EgyptAir MS804 wreckage finally found - News from Al Jazeera

But again no detailed information, like we know where the tail is, and it is xx_x metres deep, and in a good recovery position. At 3000+ metres deep there is no harm in showing an attractive sketch that looks like they are on the job.

 

[JessicaTam]

UPDATE: Resting places located
Crashed EgyptAir MS804 wreckage finally found - News from Al Jazeera

But again no detailed information, like we know where the tail is, and it is xx_x metres deep, and in a good recovery position. At 3000+ metres deep there is no harm in showing an attractive sketch that looks like they are on the job.

The voice recorder has been recovered. Voice recorder from crashed EgyptAir flight MS804 found

Whilst the voice recorder is damaged, the 'memory unit' has been retrieved from it.

 

[docjames]

The voice recorder has been recovered. Voice recorder from crashed EgyptAir flight MS804 found

Whilst the voice recorder is damaged, the 'memory unit' has been retrieved from it.

From the linked article (my bolding)

“There are a number of stationary microphones in the coughpit plus the pilots wear microphones,” said Peter Goelz, an aviation expert formerly with the US national transportation safety board. “The value of the recording of the device is that it records not just the records voices and conversations within coughpit but also all of the sounds in the coughpit.”

What the?

 

[jb747]

From the linked article (my bolding)


What the?[/FONT][/COLOR]

The headsets have an attached microphone, which is live to the recorder at all times.

 

[docjames]

The headsets have an attached microphone, which is live to the recorder at all times.

Well there you go, you learn something new every day.

Is there also a "coughpit" (ambient / background) microphone? Or just the headset ones? Do the headset ones stay live even when not worn?