Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[justinbrett]

500 beds is a starting point but nowhere near enough unless there are plans to either increase hotel quarantine capacity significantly or allow a significant amount of home quarantine. We need to be able to accommodate several times the number coming into the country at the moment.

The full plan is for 3000 beds. Only the first 500 beds are funded.

 

[MooTime]

I

There is absolutely no chance that will be up and running in 13 weeks!
I've more chance of winning the lottery

I could be totally wrong but I'm almost certain I heard that the plan was building to commence in September with a planned opening in January

That's assuming no delays in the tender process, build and no fighting and peacock feather display's between the state and federal governments on how it should be built
None of that would happen right and delay everything?

I agree, has a Vic gov project ever delivered on time & on budget ???

sorry, me me sir I know the answer.......I know this answer as worked on quite a few including, many metro railway stations & Westgate tunnel project.

Oh my, absolute no chance to complete it before the year is out.
Contractors & other management know it's high priority & "will make it delayed" as their on a good wicket, if you know what I mean.

At least engineering works underway.

 

[dajop]

I don't know how many times I've overhead people say ' do not allow anyone to enter period"
We on AFF know that is unrealistic but to the masses who have been told to be very fearful of the outside world this seems absolutely justified

We live in Singapore, which has been very low risk for the last 9 months except for the last few weeks. We returned to Australia for a couple of months early December. I think I've mentioned this before on this thread, that whilst there, my partner was doing work at his rental property (unit) in between tenants, and one of the neighbours (who he knows via the owners committee) verbally abused him for being back in Australia ... asking what was he doing and that he shouldn't have come back to Australia bringing the virus with him . At a loss for words, but demonstrates your observations are spot on.

 

[Chalkie]

This is a rabbit hole we probably don't want to go down as it deserves its own thread. We don't have a bill of rights which many say is a big problem.

However, legislation is only an internal application of the treaty - Australia is accountable to the rest of the world by ratifying it. If it were to continually erode these rights, it would damage Australia's reputation and inhibit Australia calling out others like China on its failure to uphold basic human rights. It certainly doesn't want to do that.

We've had a lot of press in the UK & USA for not letting our citizens come home. Who knows what damage that has already done to our reputation.

My experience as an Australian expat while working in a global field, and now living abroad in retirement, is that Australia's opinion of its reputation overseas and its actual reputation are two very different things. And I am quite confident that many Australians, and those who govern them, care very little for Australia's reputation on the international stage.

It has been observed by others here that considerations which have nothing to do with public health issues in Australia are driving governmental actions and decisions. From a distance, that assessment seems entirely accurate, IMO. A consequence of it is that I have given up any hope of any outbound family reunion until 2023 (or possibly later), and accepted that to visit my family in Australia I will need to spend very considerable sums of money on travel and the time in hotel (or its successor) quarantine. I hope that their health holds, and any sort of sudden visit is not necessary.

I have also determined that a return to Australia on a longer term basis comes with very considerable risk that it will be a one way trip. For that reason, I currently harbour very significant misgivings about any permanent return to Australia, will delay that for as long as possible and think very carefully about the utility of a permanent return. The character of many Australians and the politicians they elect exposed by their conduct during the pandemic has been revealing, but perhaps not entirely unsurprising.

 

[Chalkie]

But even if you assume the ICCPR is enforceable in Australia, it is worth reading all of Article 12, which relates to freedom of movement, which I have quoted below. There is sufficient wriggle move in 3) to deal with public health matters, therefore it would come down to some form of adjudication around whether the restrictions were proportionate.




There is also the possibility of derogation, so it's clear that many of the rights are not inviolable, but that seems to relate to the “life of the nation”, not the lives of individuals in the nation. But still further wriggle room.

As the ICCPR is not enforceable in Australia in its terms, those are moot issues. And the High Court made it quite clear in Gerner v Victoria that there is no absolute freedom of movement in Australia, and many High Court authorities equally make it quite clear that any common law freedoms or negative rights always yield to the law as expressed by a legislature. Fundamentally, in Australia, there are virtually no foundational positive legal rights possessed by individuals. I often chuckle silently to myself when I hear Australians talk about their "rights".

 

[Seat0B]

My experience as an Australian expat while working in a global field, and now living abroad in retirement, is that Australia's opinion of its reputation overseas and its actual reputation are two very different things. And I am quite confident that many Australians, and those who govern them, care very little for Australia's reputation on the international stage.

It has been observed by others here that considerations which have nothing to do with public health issues in Australia are driving governmental actions and decisions. From a distance, that assessment seems entirely accurate, IMO. A consequence of it is that I have given up any hope of any outbound family reunion until 2023 (or possibly later), and accepted that to visit my family in Australia I will need to spend very considerable sums of money on travel and the time in hotel (or its successor) quarantine. I hope that their health holds, and any sort of sudden visit is not necessary.

I have also determined that a return to Australia on a longer term basis comes with very considerable risk that it will be a one way trip. For that reason, I currently harbour very significant misgivings about any permanent return to Australia, will delay that for as long as possible and think very carefully about the utility of a permanent return. The character of many Australians and the politicians they elect exposed by their conduct during the pandemic has been revealing, but perhaps not entirely unsurprising.

I have never been so ashamed to be Australian as I am right now.

The way we have abandoned and even demonised needy citizens overseas, the criminalisation of returning to Australia from India, the pathetic caps on inbound arrivals with no action taken to improve the situation in well over a year, the imposition of exit bans on citizens, the refusal to recognise what most people would understand to be compassionate circumstances for overseas travel - like bringing home the 200+ unaccompanied minor children in India, not to mention the appalling results of state border closures - "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders", people prevented from attending funerals of immediate family members, the recent case of a woman who gave birth to a premature baby whilst in HQ and has not been permitted to see that child, and the impacts on everyone of the sudden unpredictable lockdowns. I am really ashamed.

We might be doing well at beating COVID (and even that is debatable on a longer term view given our shambolic vaccination program) but we have totally lost our human decency, our empathy for others and frankly, our common sense. Dreadful. I hang my head.

 

[roogirl]

I have never been so ashamed to be Australian as I am right now.

The way we have abandoned and even demonised needy citizens overseas, the criminalisation of returning to Australia from India, the pathetic caps on inbound arrivals with no action taken to improve the situation in well over a year, the imposition of exit bans on citizens, the refusal to recognise what most people would understand to be compassionate circumstances for overseas travel - like bringing home the 200+ unaccompanied minor children in India, not to mention the appalling results of state border closures - "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders", people prevented from attending funerals of immediate family members, the recent case of a woman who gave birth to a premature baby whilst in HQ and has not been permitted to see that child, and the impacts on everyone of the sudden unpredictable lockdowns. I am really ashamed.

We might be doing well at beating COVID (and even that is debatable on a longer term view given our shambolic vaccination program) but we have totally lost our human decency, our empathy for others and frankly, our common sense. Dreadful. I hang my head.

Hear hear. I am fantasising about running into the PM when he’s in the U.K. and giving him a piece of my mind. (I note he won’t be hotel quarantining on his return to Australia either.)

 

[Amanad78]

Hear hear. I am fantasising about running into the PM when he’s in the U.K. and giving him a piece of my mind. (I note he won’t be hotel quarantining on his return to Australia either.)

He must be taking part in his own pilot/trial for vaccinated people to quarantine at home

 

[mviy]

Hear hear. I am fantasising about running into the PM when he’s in the U.K. and giving him a piece of my mind. (I note he won’t be hotel quarantining on his return to Australia either.)

He’ll be quarantining at the PM’s residence. The security etc. required for the PM would make quarantining in a hotel impractical. That plus setting up secure links etc. for a few weeks when there are already working ones at the lodge would mean that hotel quarantine would be more expensive for the taxpayer one would think than using the existing residence that is being paid for anyway. If they have to clear the whole floor of a hotel for security reasons that reduces how many other Australians can come home

I can understand the PM not going to a hotel for quarantine.

 

[bcworld]

He’ll be quarantining at the PM’s residence. The security etc. required for the PM would make quarantining in a hotel impractical.

Cmon....if Kylie did it I'm sure the PM could!

 

[dajop]

As the ICCPR is not enforceable in Australia in its terms, those are moot issues.

The way I was looking at was that there are outs written in relation to public health anyway. I'm saying it doesn't matter whether it applies in Australia, there's an out for public health anyway. You're saying it doesn't matter whats written it because it doesn't apply anyway.

Either way, it's a double whammy against those who assert that the ICCPR is relevant to the current restrictions.

 

[justinbrett]

I don't understand why New Zealand didn't have to put outwards travel bans on its citizens and they have no backlog for MIQ

Edit - per capita, if we had the MIQ places NZ had, we'd have around 10,500 beds per week. That's almost double what we have.

I guess that's my answer.

 

[DC3]

He’ll be quarantining at the PM’s residence ..

How do we know this? Anyway, holed up in The Lodge would be home quarantine wouldn’t it?

 

[dajop]

The way we have abandoned and even demonised needy citizens overseas, the criminalisation of returning to Australia from India, the pathetic caps on inbound arrivals with no action taken to improve the situation in well over a year, the imposition of exit bans on citizens, the refusal to recognise what most people would understand to be compassionate circumstances for overseas travel - like bringing home the 200+ unaccompanied minor children in India, not to mention the appalling results of state border closures - "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders", people prevented from attending funerals of immediate family members, the recent case of a woman who gave birth to a premature baby whilst in HQ and has not been permitted to see that child, and the impacts on everyone of the sudden unpredictable lockdowns. I am really ashamed.

You know, I don't think any of the things you mention were unreasonable, they were all sensible course of actions in reacting quickly and responding to an unknown emerging threat. There were challenges in dealing with things and setting things up, and solutions take time to find. Yes it is harsh, yes it was not fair for lots of people ....... but life can be tough for all sorts of reasons.

So it could be argued all of this was harsh but necessary ......... for the first 6 months or so.

However, now almost 18 months in, there's been plenty of time to examine things rationally and compassionately and find solutions for some of the more difficult human challenges. It is an absolute desecration of everything Australia is supposed to stand for, that no-one has shown any leadership in finding compassionate solutions to these problems. Eighteen months is enough time to do so in a way that risks can be carefully managed.

Instead leaders have entrenched privilege into Australian society, made it far less egalitarian, whipped up mob-think and abdicated responsibility for any compassion. It is morally reprehensible that some solutions couldn't be found for many of these things, whilst everyone's pandering to goddam sportspeople and celebrities, who get a free pass. Seeing the story about a father who was denied an exemption to collect his child from India, yet if the father played high level cricket or tennis or darts, he probably could have travelled to a tournament there and picked up the child on the way home. Sad.

 

[mviy]

How do we know this?

I'm pretty sure it's been talked about by politicians appearing on TV etc.

 

[MooTime]

How do we know this? Anyway, holed up in The Lodge would be home quarantine wouldn’t it?

Cos when the PM went Japan in recent times during covid he returned to quarantine at the lodge.

Rather obvious.

 

[roogirl]

He’ll be quarantining at the PM’s residence. The security etc. required for the PM would make quarantining in a hotel impractical. That plus setting up secure links etc. for a few weeks when there are already working ones at the lodge would mean that hotel quarantine would be more expensive for the taxpayer one would think than using the existing residence that is being paid for anyway. If they have to clear the whole floor of a hotel for security reasons that reduces how many other Australians can come home

I can understand the PM not going to a hotel for quarantine.

I disagree with this. It is irrelevant if he takes over a floor, we know there is plenty of capacity in quarantine as almost all the States have dropped their arrival caps!

I think it’s an important principle. At the moment if you are a politician, a sportsperson or an actor you are allowed to cross the border in and out of australia to do your job and the inconvenience and cost of returning is minimised. Everyone else is stuck. That stinks imo and is a major reason for the Federal Government’s complacency - if you had scomo and Dan Tehan looking down the barrel of 2 weeks in hotel quarantine I can guarantee things would be moving faster.

let’s see what happens with the GP in melbourne in novermber where the suggestion is that the teams don’t quarantine but just “stay in bubbles” and get chauffeured between hotels and the racetracks. They are absolutely taking the piss with these proposals and it is infuriating.

 

[mviy]

Just because Scott Morrison has permission to leave it doesn't mean he'd be going with his kids. So travel is still more restricted for him than before the pandemic.

Whilst I feel restrictions are much, much tighter than they should be (I feel family reunion should be an acceptable travel reason by now when they have had so long to increase quarantine caps), I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the PM to quarantine at the lodge where the cost to the taxpayer can be minimised and he can more easily run the country.

Setting things up for the PM to run things for 2 weeks from a hotel would be an expensive exercise and require a lot of planning and taking up a whole floor of the hotel whereas there are already appropriate security plans in place and equipment for him to work from an official residence of the PM without needing to do much special planning. Security would still need to guard the official residences whether the PM was there or not (though not as many when he is not in residence) so it's not like him quarantining at the Lodge would cost the taxpayer a lot of money that wouldn't be spent otherwise.

Sportspeople and actors should all be doing hotel quarantine, but the PM not doing that is the one exception that makes sense to me.

 

[dajop]

Sportspeople and actors should all be doing hotel quarantine, but the PM not doing that is the one exception that makes sense to me.

Agree. He has two official taxpayer funded residences. I'm less inclined to see ministers of the crown get special treatment, but the PM has two residences already being paid for that have all the measures in place to prevent ingress/egress. Maybe he should commit to not go outside during the two weeks!

 

[Pushka]

I have never been so ashamed to be Australian as I am right now.

The way we have abandoned and even demonised needy citizens overseas, the criminalisation of returning to Australia from India, the pathetic caps on inbound arrivals with no action taken to improve the situation in well over a year, the imposition of exit bans on citizens, the refusal to recognise what most people would understand to be compassionate circumstances for overseas travel - like bringing home the 200+ unaccompanied minor children in India, not to mention the appalling results of state border closures - "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders", people prevented from attending funerals of immediate family members, the recent case of a woman who gave birth to a premature baby whilst in HQ and has not been permitted to see that child, and the impacts on everyone of the sudden unpredictable lockdowns. I am really ashamed.

We might be doing well at beating COVID (and even that is debatable on a longer term view given our shambolic vaccination program) but we have totally lost our human decency, our empathy for others and frankly, our common sense. Dreadful. I hang my head.

I agree with your sentiments entirely but in reality we are also pitting state against state in Australia. So much for ‘we are one, but we are many’. The pandemic and border closures have shown this is no true Federation.