Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[serfty]

Fiji Airways Boeing 737 Max 8 planes safe says CAA, as Australia, Europe, Singapore suspend flights

 

[Must...Fly!]

I suspect this too, but why have CASA make a ban and then go ahead and allow the aircraft to fly?! Surely a ban is a ban, regardless of how may pax on board.
The ongoing implications of this exception mean that two aircraft (DQ FAB, and DQ FAD - which flew to NAN yesterday morning pre-ban) will now be able to continue to fly South Pacific routes.

So what.

CASA isn't a worldwide regulator, it's an Australian one. What other jurisdictions do is their business.

 

[NZflygirl]

FJ are still selling seats on this morning's flight from BNE to NAN:

Results from https://www.ExpertFlyer.com

Flight Availability Search
Departing BNE on 13/03/19 12:00 AM for NAN, Flying FJ

                                                                     Frequency
Flight        Stops  Depart             Arrive             Aircraft  Reliability

FJ 920        0      BNE                NAN                7M8       Su,M,T,W,F 
                     13/03/19 11:10 AM  13/03/19 4:50 PM             82% / 45m
Available Classes
J0 D0 C0 Z0 I0 U0 Y9 B9 H9 L9 O9 K9 W9 Q9 S7 M6 V6 N6 T6 G0 R9 F4 X9 E4

View attachment 156961

I'm guessing that will be a sub rather than the MAX, especially if one just flew SYD-NAN. The other FJ MAX isn't listed on FR24 as being scheduled to fly today.

Edit: Also black box info can't be read in Ethiopia as they don't have the technology so hoping for somewhere in Europe to read due to proximity and in the interest of time.

 

[Quickstatus]

Allowed to depart our airspace, having arrived prior to the ban?

CASA did specifically say that the FJ 737M8 that are in Australian airspace will be allowed to depart.

 

[Sukina]

FJ are still selling seats on this morning's flight from BNE to NAN:

Results from https://www.ExpertFlyer.com

Flight Availability Search
Departing BNE on 13/03/19 12:00 AM for NAN, Flying FJ

                                                                     Frequency
Flight        Stops  Depart             Arrive             Aircraft  Reliability 

FJ 920        0      BNE                NAN                7M8       Su,M,T,W,F  
                     13/03/19 11:10 AM  13/03/19 4:50 PM             82% / 45m
Available Classes
J0 D0 C0 Z0 I0 U0 Y9 B9 H9 L9 O9 K9 W9 Q9 S7 M6 V6 N6 T6 G0 R9 F4 X9 E4

View attachment 156961

It’s operated by DQ-FJM which isn’t a 7M8

 

[Sukina]

So what.

CASA isn't a worldwide regulator, it's an Australian one. What other jurisdictions do is their business.

It still took off from an Australian port and flew in Australian airspace!
I understand CASA’s juristiction, my comment was aimed to hightlight the implications of CASAs decision for passengers in other locations who will now (most likely) be flying on these aircraft later today.

 

[serfty]

It’s operated by DQ-FJM which isn’t a 7M8

That's indeed seems to be the case, 7mate on the availability is misleading.

Flight status appears to provide the 73H information:

Results from https://www.ExpertFlyer.com

Flight Status Search:
Departing on 13/03/19
Flying FJ flight 920

Flight   Status           Depart Location  Depart Date                   Reliability  Arrive Location  Arrive Date
                          BNE              Scheduled: 13/03/19 11:10 AM               NAN              Scheduled: 13/03/19 4:50 PM
FJ 920   Scheduled        Term: I          Estimated: 13/03/19 11:45 AM  82% / 45m    Term:            Estimated: 13/03/19 5:05 PM
                          Gate: 84         Actual:                                    Gate:            Actual: 


Comments:
"DOFJ920/13MAR
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO*              FJ 920    1 WE 13MAR19 ASM
APT ARR   DY DEP   DY CLASS/MEAL          EQP  GRND  EFT   TTL 
BNE          1110  WE JDCZIU/L  Y/H       73H         3:40     
                      BHLOKWQSMVN/H                             
                      TGRFXE/H                                 
NAN 1650  WE                                                3:40
COMMENTS-
 1.BNE NAN   - DEPARTS TERMINAL I                               
 2.BNE NAN   -   1/ MOVIE                                       
 3.BNE NAN   -   4/ AUDIO PROGRAMMING                           
 4.BNE NAN   -   7/ DUTY FREE SALES                             
 5.BNE NAN   -   9/ NON-SMOKING                                 
 6.BNE NAN   -  ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE                   
 7.BNE NAN   - ADD PAX CTCE CTCM PER IATA RES 830D             
 8.BNE NAN   - CHECKIN COUNTERS CLOSE 1HR BEFORE DEPARTURE     
 9.BNE NAN   - PRE BOOKED SEATS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT CHECKIN   
10.BNE NAN   - NON SMOKING FLIGHT                               
11.BNE NAN   -  CO2/PAX* 178.04 KG ECO, 178.04 KG PRE           
 (*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR                 
 
CONFIGURATION-
               73H  J   8   Y 162                               
>"

 

[flyer89]

Av would probably know this but is it true MCAS only uses one AOA sensor for its data? If so I’m amazed.

 

[serfty]

From Flight Stats:

 

[Quickstatus]

As the various airline jurisdictions around the world ground the 737Max8, some will be caught out inflight.
My reading is that airspace is not closed to these aircraft but rather they cannot depart within the jurisdiction.

12/3/19 TK1997 IST-LGW and TH1969 IST-BHX (birmingham) recently returned



Originally the aircraft was permitted to land at their destinations but then be grounded. Perhaps TK thought it better for their aircraft to be grounded in Turkey rather than in the UK

TUI and Norwegian both operate the 737M8 into the UK. I think they are allowed to land but not depart.

 

[Berlin]

I know that Boeing doesn’t really shine in the best light now. That insistence that the Max is safe while the rest of the world grounds these aircraft, appears more and more ridiculous.

 

[Quickstatus]

Av would probably know this but is it true MCAS only uses one AOA sensor for its data? If so I’m amazed.

Ordinarily it uses both AoA sensor, but it can use one when the other is faulty. However one of the problems is the aircraft does not necessarily know which one of the 2 are faulty, and in the lionAir case it believed the faulty one.
Secondly the system uses the stabilisers to effect a change in pitch and can in certain circumstances (lion Air again) take away elevator authority from the pilots. The horizontal stabilisers are the horizontal wings at the tail (the vertical stabilisers are the fins). The elevators are the parts behind those horizontal wings (on the vertical stabiliser the controlling surface is the rudder). Pilots move the nose up and down by controlling the elevators and move the nose left or right by controlling the rudder.

Problem is that the elevators are smaller than the stabilisers, So a system that controls the more powerful stabilisers can overcome any effort by the pilot to correct erroneous inputs.

Stabilisers are according its name supposed to stabilise the flight of the aircraft in a certain direction in 3d - much like the feathers at the back of an arrow. They are not supposed to take over pilot authority to control the direction the flight!. And certainly not push the aircraft into a nose down attitude

And then Boeing didnt tell the airlines this system was in place

 

[Melburnian1]

Cameron Stewart in 'The Australian' today - he's a careful and credible journalist - has an article where he opines that the US aviation sector appears to shamefully put money and corporate interests above safety with its decision not to ground the 737 Max 8 jet.

Is there any reported instance of a passenger in the USA cancelling a reservation (or asking to be transferred to another flight) where the original trip was scheduled for a 737 MAX?

 

[Quickstatus]

I know that Boeing doesn’t really shine in the best light now. That insistence that the Max is safe while the rest of the world grounds these aircraft, appears more and more ridiculous.

Come back to 9 March 2019 the day prior to ET302. 1 crash presumably due to MCAS (report still not out but most agree its MCAS, or its implementation or its unintended consequences), and an airline that is not necessarily viewed as competent. Ok maybe thats a one off. Lets change a few things and keep flying.

Then 10March, another one falls out of the sky also soon after take off. This time the airline is a bit more respectable. Some say the "standard bearer" of quality African airlines - if you want to fly in Africa, fly ET. However, no idea about the cause, and much speculation.

So without much information and amid much speculation most have grounded their 737M8 until clearer information appears because 2 in a row better not be coincidence but until its a coincidence most are grounding it. And speculation destroys business.

Airlines are seen as national symbols of at least pride if not competence. Euro and China are not necessarily bedfellows with the US and each will act in their own political interests. From a political point of view grounding the 737M8 is a better political decision as Boeing is a US company.

 

[straitman]

Some of the speculative comments made here are amazing!

 

[drron]

I know that Boeing doesn’t really shine in the best light now. That insistence that the Max is safe while the rest of the world grounds these aircraft, appears more and more ridiculous.

Trump has tweeted they have taken automation too far.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Av would probably know this but is it true MCAS only uses one AOA sensor for its data? If so I’m amazed.

Correct. Therein lies the problem. It doesn't look at both sensors, just one. The bulletin from Boeing to our operating manual states:

pilots are reminded that an (my bold) erroneous AoA can cause some or all of the following indications and effects...

 

[jb747]

I don't think anyone else has mentioned it, but for some reason this accident and the Lion Air accident both sound (to a total industry outsider that has no knowledge of aircraft systems) very similar to QF72. An aircraft that decided to pitch down suddenly on its own a couple of times without manual inputs due to a faulty sensor and/or software.

QF72 could look similar with a quick glance. The two pitch downs were basically spikes, that the aircraft recognised by itself, and which caused a flight law reversion. It was a software issue, which was both readily patched, but more importantly bypassed by the aircraft at the time. It should never have pitched down in the first place, but it did not, and could not, have continued to do so.

Lots of comment on this board throwing bile at Boeing a couple intimating the B737Max is a total lemon.

The Max per se, is probably a nice update of the 737. The issue is that the 737 itself is well into its pensionable years. The only reason Boeing keeps limiting the updates is to ensure it keeps ‘grandfathered’ passes from the FAA, that it would be unable to get now. It is not a modern aircraft by any means.

A330's aren't from Boeing and I didn't see A330's being grounded all over the world.

The subsystem that caused the A330 pitch down comes from Honeywell, and is actually installed in plenty of Boeings too. In that instance there was both an alternative source, and most importantly (and also in the B777 that similar happened to), the system was part of a triplicated system. So, whilst it might go wrong for a moment, it had its own system of checks and balances.

Perhaps because nobody died - but 315 certainly could have if it wasn't for QF pilot intervention.

Actually that is not the case, though Sully did an excellent job of tidying up the messy hand he was dealt.

Boeing 737-MAX operations temporarily suspended by CASA in Australian Airspace

India’s version of CASA imposed stricter pilot experience when operating 737M8 minimum 1000hrs for PIC and 500hr for FO on the 737NG type and also stricter minimum equipment list.

Given that India has trouble ensuring that its pilots are licensed at all, I’ll take anything they do with a grain of salt. And 1,000 or 500 hours are both trivia, and do not qualify as ‘experienced’ in any way.

US politicians calling on FAA to act immediately and follow AU, EU et al and ground the MAX. Interesting to see how long they can hold out.

Oh, I expect that one of them will see it as a trade issue, and slap an embargo on them. To be honest, I don’t see the US doing anything until it happens to one of theirs.

 

[Quickstatus]

Given that India has trouble ensuring that its pilots are licensed at all, I’ll take anything they do with a grain of salt. And 1,000 or 500 hours are both trivia, and do not qualify as ‘experienced’ in any way.

Yes I found that statement by Indian regulators quite shocking. But it also reminds me of the AirAsia's motto "now everyone can fly" which a private pilot colleague reckons actually refer to aspiring pilots

 

[Major]

If COMAC get their act into gear the C919 could well be a serious competitor for the Max in a couple of years. There is no doubt they will be price competitive but they also need to ensure they sort out ALL the bugs first.