Downgraded on El Al - Compensation

[dec540]

Hi all,

I booked y+ with QF points on a flight from TLV-HKG (11hrs) on El Al.

The flight was oversold in premium classes and from what I can tell a number of pax got bumped down a class, myself and a friend included. I was advised upon check in that I was downgraded and that a new ticket for a Y seat would be issued at the gate.

When I got to the gate I was issued with a new ticket and advised compensation of $1,230 (USD) would be provided, but I had to claim it from customer service. I saw the lady read this amount from a piece of paper, but besides that have no record of the $1,230.

I’ve contacted El Al customer service and their response time is apparently 21 days.

It’s only been a few days, so I haven’t heard back yet. Is there anything else I should be doing or is it simply a waiting game. I.e. since I booked a QF reward ticket will El Al tell me to sod off?

I realise I probably should’ve asked for some details of the compensation in writing, but haven’t been in this situation before.

Thanks all!

 

[Must...Fly!]

I would wait for ElAl to get back to you. If she's reading from paper then it would be a policy (as it usually is for airlines), however no guarantee they were reading the right figure from the table (human error).

Qantas won't do much if anything, I suspect. If no one at El-Al looks too hard you'll probably end up with the cash...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Israel has a set of passenger rights, very similar to EU261 which cover delays, cancellations and downgrades.

More information here: https://www.elal.com/en/About-ELAL/Legal/Pages/Aviation-Services-Law.aspx

and here: A new Israeli law that makes airlines compensate passengers for changing flight times (but note the article is 2012, so there may have been some refinements to the law since then. But it's a good overview of the type of thing to expect).

 

[dec540]

Thanks all. I should say that the $1,230 they referred to was handwritten on a blank boarding pass, not a formal memo or reference guide.

Interestingly (and I hope entirely unrelated) I have received QF points from this flight, despite it being booked as a reward ticket. The points are roughly 12% of the booking price, so I hope this isn't the compensation!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks all. I should say that the $1,230 they referred to was handwritten on a blank boarding pass, not a formal memo or reference guide.

Interestingly (and I hope entirely unrelated) I have received QF points from this flight, despite it being booked as a reward ticket. The points are roughly 12% of the booking price, so I hope this isn't the compensation!

The QF points are unrelated. You would have been changed out of an award seat into a revenue seat, created to accommodate your downgrade. As this was now a revenue ticket it would accrue as per the terms and conditons of the QFFF program.

Don't count the FF points as part of the package, look only at what is mentioned in the defined legal compensation requirements.

 

[dec540]

Update - EL AL have responded to my e-mail and advised that I need to follow up with QF, because the flight was booked with QF points. They've indicated the compensation should now be some sort of refund of points from QF.

Any suggestions on what I do? I feel like QF are going to tell me to get stuffed, or I'm going to end up with some sort of measly pro-rata refund of the points.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Update - EL AL have responded to my e-mail and advised that I need to follow up with QF, because the flight was booked with QF points. They've indicated the compensation should now be some sort of refund of points from QF.

Any suggestions on what I do? I feel like QF are going to tell me to get stuffed, or I'm going to end up with some sort of measly pro-rata refund of the points.

It's a bit tricky. The full compensation rules (not the summarised version) posted above do require the airline to pay compensation for a 'change to flight ticket conditions' (that is, a downgrade in class). The benefit for this is a percentage of the price of the ticket (up to 100% of the ticket)

How that works for an award I don't know. And I don't know who has responsibility for this - is it El Al as the operating carrier that needs to sort it out with Qantas for you? or are they allowed to refer you to Qantas because it a points ticket?

Perhaps you might look at FlyerTalk for this one? They have an El Al forum. I haven't looked there but it might have a discussion of the compensation regime, and how ward tickets are handled. If not you could post with your circumstances and El Al's reply.

 

[dec540]

Thanks. Great tip. I’ll try that

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks. Great tip. I’ll try that

Let us know how you go!

 

[pyffii]

I've recently had an issue with Iberia on a QF award ticket where IB cancelled the flight we were booked on and rebooked us on the following day....no problems except IB didnt change our connecting flight ( all on one PNR and E-Ticket )which then became an impossible connect....IB didnt want to know about it even though they made an involuntary change and it took 5 phone calls to QF in Hobart before a very helpful consultant rectified the issue by booking our connecting flight into D class instead of U class....So you will have to hastle QF to find your resolution and refund.

 

[equus]

And I don't know who has responsibility for this - is it El Al as the operating carrier that needs to sort it out with Qantas for you?

From the terms of the compensation rules, it seems pretty clear it would be El Al with the responsibility. It would make little sense if Qantas was responsible for the refund, as it was not their action that caused the problem. However, it seems that anyone should be wary of using points on any of these flights to/from Israel if El Al is in the habit of overbooking, as it would seem that redemption tickets are the first target of downgrades.

Unless you have urgent need to be on the flight, it would always be wiser to have the compensation firmly in hand (cash) before accepting a downgrade - especially here, where (like the EU regulation), they have to pay compensation and accommodation etc. if they actually deny you boarding.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From the terms of the compensation rules, it seems pretty clear it would be El Al with the responsibility.

yes... but... what I couldn't find was how they calculated the value of an award ticket? The regulations make it easy for cases where cash has been paid, but I can't seem to find how they calculate an award? If it's points, how does El Al refund that?

I think El Al should be proactively following it up with QF - that is, they should be telling QF they only want 10000 points for the flight instead of 50000 (or whatever the amounts are). But will they do that? I don't see how QF will make a proactive points refund.

I guess they could use the 'tourist package' calcualtion? (third schedule section 3(b)?)

 

[equus]

If it's points, how does El Al refund that?

Obviously an issue - badly worded / framed legislation / regulation which has no regard to practicalities would not necessarily be anything unique.

There would be a points and a cash component, one would think. The fact that El Al will have difficulty refunding QF points is rather a problem it has to address to comply with its regulatory obligation - if that becomes too difficult, you would hope that they come to an arrangement to the satisfaction of the customer (i.e. pay them an approrpiate cash payment).

 

[dec540]

Hi all,

An update on this. 3 months later and I have received a partial refund for my flight, in points. I've been refunded 21,000 points which is the difference between an Economy reward and a Premium Economy reward.

Whilst I can see the logic behind this, I find it rather disappointing for 2 main reasons.

I was advised the compensation for the downgrade would be $1,230 USD, not 21,000 QF points
Without trying to sound like a snob, this promised compensation made it a lot easier to deal with economy for 11 hours. If I had been told the compensation was approx $300 AUD (1.5c per point) or 21,000 points at the airport, I would've tried to negotiate some sort of alternative prior to boarding. I probably should've tried to get something in writing, though from my dealings with El Al I feel this wouldn't have made the slightest difference.

The airline is not penalised at all for blatantly overbooking
This one really grinds my gears. El Al has effectively not been penalised at all for overselling their flight. They might as well sell their full business class allocation at the economy price x 1.5, then again at 2.0, then again at 2.5 etc. etc. knowing they will overbook but then they can simply bump the lowest paying passengers and refund the small difference between what they paid and the class they sit in. Better yet, let's sell premium seats via blind auction!​

I'm not really sure if there's anything further I can do, though at this stage I have lost all interest and I'm just moving on.

I guess the lesson here is that if you book with points, expect there's a chance you're actually booking an economy seat and are just lending the airline some additional points for a few months (assuming you can be bothered spending hours chasing them!)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hi all,

An update on this. 3 months later and I have received a partial refund for my flight, in points. I've been refunded 21,000 points which is the difference between an Economy reward and a Premium Economy reward.

Whilst I can see the logic behind this, I find it rather disappointing for 2 main reasons.

I was advised the compensation for the downgrade would be $1,230 USD, not 21,000 QF points
Without trying to sound like a snob, this promised compensation made it a lot easier to deal with economy for 11 hours. If I had been told the compensation was approx $300 AUD (1.5c per point) or 21,000 points at the airport, I would've tried to negotiate some sort of alternative prior to boarding. I probably should've tried to get something in writing, though from my dealings with El Al I feel this wouldn't have made the slightest difference.

The airline is not penalised at all for blatantly overbooking
This one really grinds my gears. El Al has effectively not been penalised at all for overselling their flight. They might as well sell their full business class allocation at the economy price x 1.5, then again at 2.0, then again at 2.5 etc. etc. knowing they will overbook but then they can simply bump the lowest paying passengers and refund the small difference between what they paid and the class they sit in. Better yet, let's sell premium seats via blind auction!​

I'm not really sure if there's anything further I can do, though at this stage I have lost all interest and I'm just moving on.

I guess the lesson here is that if you book with points, expect there's a chance you're actually booking an economy seat and are just lending the airline some additional points for a few months (assuming you can be bothered spending hours chasing them!)

It's not just EL AL - Qantas also does it. And on Qantas the downgrade compensation can also be pretty bad. They take your discounted business class fare off you, sell it again for a higher price or give it to a platinum, and then charge you a full walk-up fare in economy applicable an hour before the flight. This means out of your $3500 one way fare USA-Australia you might get just a few hundred dollars back. Wouldn't be so bad if they priced the economy ticket at the lowest fare they sold the flight (giving you back $3000). Points bookings are easier to refund though.

The courts are stuck in the past by allowing overbooking. But perhaps there might be a refocus now the ACCC has taken an interest.

Europe is protected by EU261. And so, supposedly, is Israel with their similar rules. It should be EL AL paying you the USD1230.

 

[Pushka]

It's not just EL AL - Qantas also does it. And on Qantas the downgrade compensation can also be pretty bad. They take your discounted business class fare off you, sell it again for a higher price or give it to a platinum, and then charge you a full walk-up fare in economy applicable an hour before the flight. This means out of your $3500 one way fare USA-Australia you might get just a few hundred dollars back. Wouldn't be so bad if they priced the economy ticket at the lowest fare they sold the flight (giving you back $3000). Points bookings are easier to refund though.

The courts are stuck in the past by allowing overbooking. But perhaps there might be a refocus now the ACCC has taken an interest.

Europe is protected by EU261. And so, supposedly, is Israel with their similar rules. It should be EL AL paying you the USD1230.

EK does it too. That’s why we’ve been upgraded a few times. Not because we are nice but Y has been overbooked.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

EK does it too. That’s why we’ve been upgraded a few times. Not because we are nice but Y has been overbooked.

Overbooking Y and upgrading to J/F isn't so much of a problem though

My friends were bumped from an SQ flight (fairly rare by all accounts). Were given a room at the airport hotel in MEL and upgraded to J class on the next flight out a few hours later.

Some airlines won't overbook their combined premium cabins.